Pastors Go Postal

For heartsick former supporters of John Edwards, this week offers an edifying tabloid alternative: the civil trial of Victoria Osteen, wife of megachurch minister and televangelist Joel Osteen, for assaulting a flight attendant. The issue was what is sometimes described as a “spill” and sometimes as a “stain” on the armrest of Mrs. Osteen’s first class seat, which the flight attendant refused to clean up with sufficient alacrity because she was busy assisting others board. Although there is no evidence that the spill consisted of tuberculosis-ridden phlegm or avian flu-rich bird poop, Osteen was mightily pissed, allegedly pushing and punching the flight attendant and making such a ruckus that the Osteen family had to be removed from the flight.

I would be more sympathetic to the flight attendant, Sharon Brown, if she weren’t demanding 10 percent of Osteen’s fortune to compensate for injuries including a “loss of faith” and hemorrhoids somehow incurred from a frontal assault. But it isn’t easy being a flight attendant in this era of layoffs, pay cuts and packed planes – certainly not compared to being a millionaire on her way to Vail. Whatever dubious substance Victoria Osteen faced on that first class armrest, she should have been able to derive some serenity from the fact that the church she co-pastors draws 40,000 worshippers a week and that her husband has been dubbed “America’s Most Influential Christian.”

Just another celebrity meltdown set off by insufficiently servile servers? Recall Russell Crowe’s 2005 assault with a telephone on a SoHo hotel clerk, or Naomi Campbell’s attacks with similar weapons –cell phone and Blackberry-- on members of her own staff. But there’s a curious antecedent here that Christians would do well to ponder: In 1997, another megachurch pastor and leading televangelist – Robert Schuller – was prosecuted for an eerily similar first class tantrum.

Schuller, like the Osteens, is a proponent of positive thinking – the doctrine that God intends for you to be rich, healthy and generally “great” right here in this life. While politicos have focused on the Christian Right, there’s been far less attention to the fast growing brand of Christianity Light, also represented by televangelists Joyce Meyer, Benny Hinn and Creflo Dollar. Positive thinking is the theology of the modern megachurch, and it avoids all mention of sin –including the “sins” of abortion and homosexuality – lest such “negative” topics turn off any potential converts or “seekers.” Its promise is that you can have anything you want simply by “visualizing” it or, as Osteen puts it, “believing for it” -- a doctrine derided by some Christian critics as “name it and claim it.”

Schuller faced a different biohazard on his first class flight in ’97 – cheese. When the flight attendant gave him a fruit and cheese plate for dessert, Schuller insisted that the cheese be removed. The flight attendant refused, explaining, reasonably enough, that all the fruit had been plated with cheese and could be contaminated, from a cheese- allergy sufferer’s point of view . But the pastor was simply on a low-fat diet and did not want to see the cheese on his plate, so he got out of his seat and accosted the flight attendant, shaking him violently by the shoulders. Schuller ended up paying an $1100 fine and undergoing six months of police supervision.

In the theology of Christian positive thinking, “everything happens for a reason.” The Osteens may conclude that the divine intention was to prod them into to emulating Joyce Meyers and Creflo Dollar by investing in a private jet. But there’s another possible message from on high: that this brand of Christianity fosters a distinctly un-Christian narcissism.

Consider the ways the Lord works in the life of the Osteens, as recounted in Joel’s book Your Best Life Now, which has sold four million copies and is graced by a back cover photo of the smiling couple. Acting through Victoria, who kept “speaking words of faith and victory” on the subject, Joel was led to build the family “an elegant home.” On other occasions, God intervened to save Joel from a speeding ticket and to get him not only a good parking spot but “the premier spot in that parking lot.” Why God did not swoop down with a sponge and clean up the offending stain on the armrest remains a mystery, because Osteen’s deity is less the Master of the Universe than an obliging factotum.

Plenty of Christians have already made the point that the positive thinking of Christianity Light is demeaning to God, and I leave them to pursue this critique. More importantly, from a secular point of view, it’s dismissive of other humans, and not only flight attendants. If a person is speeding, shouldn’t he get a ticket to deter him from endangering others? And if Osteen gets the premier parking spot, what about all the other people consigned to the remote fringes of the lot? Christianity, at best, is about a sacrificial love for others, not about getting to the head of the line.

If the Osteens’ brand of religion is what flight attendant Sharon Brown lost faith in as a result of being manhandled by on that plane to Vail, then the suit should be dropped, because Victoria Osteen has already done her enough of a favor.

Comments

[Rev. John]

Well stated. This pastor has been known to lose his cool, so I have sympathy for those you discuss. Many of us will quote you in a future sermon, especially, "Christianity, at best, is about a sacrificial love for others, not about getting to the head of the line."

[sohbet]

thanks a lot

[sohbet odaları]

very good wonderfull

[Howie Luvzus]

Amen!

This Christianity Light bears little resemblance to the one that said the first shall be last!

[jessica star]

I love the idea of Victoria Osteen "speaking words of faith and victory" to get her husband to build her a bigger house. I wonder what those were. Something like the words of victory she had for the flight attendant, perhaps?

[Martyn]

I am impressed with how you manage to present the theological divisions within contemporary Christianity, yet at the same time distinguish from a secular point of view how these ideas about the world are harmful.

[Chickensh*tEagle]

"Words of faith and victory." Best euphemism I've yet heard for nagging.

[JMarra]

I am at least as angry at Christians who refuse to take a stand against the Joel Osteens and Ted Haggards of Christiandom--an official stand, not mealy-mouthed "this has nothing to do with MY Christianity, I'm not like that and no one in MY church is anything like that, my goodness, no, we are REAL Christians"--statements that are both disingenuous and self-aggrandizing.

Christians are quick to tolerate eccentric and arrogant behavior among the richest church members--to cultivate them into their Boards of Directors, and solicit their money for church renovations and projects.

Asking Christian denominations to denounce accumulation of riches in this life might put material benefits to their own church and congregation at risk; to point out character flaws in their most wealthy members would rock the money boat.

"When you are rich, you are wise and you are handsome--and you sing well, too!" --Yiddish saying

[BlueBerry Pick'n]

Its not like we don't snivellingly suck up to anybody with MONEY in our culture.
gee, I wonder why they believe that money or 'might makes right'??

===
Last Fall, when I was returning from the bathroom on ONE trans-continental 'cattle class' AirFrance flight, we experienced turbulence.

as I hesitated to enter my seat because the geriatric gentleman in the aisle seat was almost finished his meal...
**the bitchy attendant who suddenly appeared behind me snapped, "GET INTO YOUR SEAT & stop 'wandering the cabin'!" **

[ wandering the cabin?! huh?? I only went left & around because the aisle between the bathroom & my seat was blocked by the attendants taking up the finished trays... My partner & I were bewildered. ]

I pointed out that his table was still down & he had an empty food tray on it & I COULD NOT GET INTO THE SEAT.

at that point, she demanded I "GET INTO MY SEAT, NOW!" I asked if she could *take* the tray so I could.

She snapped that I should "DO AS I WAS TOLD"

I pointed out that it wasn't my fault she was a bad waitress in a lousy service & that if SHE wanted to climb over a geriatric to get into the seat she could.
[I waived my right hand vaguely as I pointed out that my compliance & passage was blocked by both a slow-moving person & his dinner tray... ]
she notified me I was THREATENING HER & asked if I wanted Security to deal with me.

At this point I PICKED UP THE TRAY so I could get into the seat & -being somewhat gimpy myself- tripped over the geriatric arthritic gentleman.

2 hours later, I was *shaken awake* by a stranger in uniform who demanded if I was the person indicated by my seat placement. I removed my orange foamy earplugs & blinked blindly as I replaced my glasses for the eyemask. blinking in the overhead light in my face...

I asked 'who wants to know? & who the hell are you?'

"none of your business, answer the question"

"who the hell are you to ask me anything?"

"I'm the Purser, don't make me get Security"

at this point, my partner awoke & drowsily confirmed who I was.

I asked, "& where is this information going?"

"Interpol, we document people like you".

[HUH?!? We fully expected to be escorted off the aircraft.]

When we landed, the attendant opened the overhead cargo & a large package dropped on the head of the geriatric gentleman.

NOTE TO THOSE TRAVELLING BY AIR FRANCE -who never answered any of my complaint letters:
"I GUESS I SHOULD SPRING FOR FIRST-CLASS TICKETS."

┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄
BlueBerry Pick'n
can be found @
ThisCanadian.com
┄┄
"... tolerance of intolerance is cowardice... " ~ Ayaan Hirsi Ali.
"We, two, form a Multitude" ~ Ovid.
┄┄
"Silent Freedom is Freedom Silenced"
┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄┄

[bruce]

Good, well-executed piece without being mean-spirited like most commentary on the subject.
The Osteens just present one Image of several trillion Images of someone.
And since I just discovered your blog, your suicide/foreclosure view was spot on -- I saw the headline on several sites when first reported, and I myself wanted to write something on it, but the horror of the story itself was so great I didn't even want to find out the details (it's getting that as one studies current events nowadays, a lot of stories like that keep coming up)
The US/World is going to doo-doo in a big, old wire basket.
Good stuff.

[gaby]

I used to the be deeply bothered by TV preachers raking in all this money to afford such a luxury lifestyle and the behavior that goes with it. Nix love thy neighbor, helping the poor, providing true guidance to troubled people.

But I am not bothered anymore. If they are blessed with the gift of making people believe in the nonsense they are dishing out, good for them. Everytime I see a documentary on those preachers and the camera gives a shot of the audience I can't help but wonder: who are these suckers? That is this thing that does bother me, that there so many stupid people who cannot seem to tell the difference between religion and a moneymaking scheme disguised as religion.

[roger]

" this has nothing to do with MY Christianity, I'm not like that and no one in MY church is anything like that, my goodness, no, we are REAL Christians"--statements that are both disingenuous and self-aggrandizing. "

given the minuscule number of persons who earn large amounts of money preaching either doctrine or worldly philosophy, i would say that there are large numbers of truly pious christians who can, without any disingenuousness, declare that what some television evangelists are preaching is not their christianity and that they are not like that. I belong to a congregation with a lay ministry.

[ryandake]

my father used to tell me that if i wanted to make a lot of money, i should start up a church :-)

[Jennifer]

I actually think this post misses the mark.

Victoria Osteen's problem isn't that she's a Christian (prosperity gospel or otherwise). Her problem is that she's semi-famous.

Celebrities are constantly misbehaving in public because they're rich, famous, feel entitled, and most of America coddles their sense of entitlement.

Osteen just wasn't enough of a celebrity to quite get away with it and the Osteens' transparently self-serving Jesus hucksterism only serves to make the whole thing seem more hypocritical.

I'm familiar with Osteen Christians and I think a lot of churches (even if they formally denounce the "prosperity gospel") see him as benignly irrelevant.

Osteen speaks the familiar languages of self-help jargon and Evangelical jargon, so his character (which is clearly a performance) makes any pastor who denounces him look like a big, humorless weenie.

Too bad Sharon Brown overshot on the lawsuit. All the witnesses are siding with Osteen and Brown is obviously gold-digging.

Which means the Christians will now have a fresh story to feed their persecution complex.

[Monica]

Other passengers and a pilot testified in Ms. Osteen's favour. See
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080814/ap_on_re_us/osteen_s_wife_lawsuit;_ylt=AqftHpqZtyryeNmKXF20bBWs0NUE.

On the other hand, to the flight attendant, this minor incident may have seemed like the opportunity of her life. An opportunity to make money, of course. And I know they have a hard job, but what kind of flight attendant is that who won't even clean a spill or remove some cheese?

[Steve]

When I read what passes for Christianity these days, it makes me glad I converted to Judaism. Now if we could get those Rabbis at the Iowa Kosher slaugherhouse to fess up to the error of their ways ...

[Brian]

If you just look at pictures of Osteen and the flight attendent you can pretty accurately guess they aren't going to get along too well together. Osteen seems like someone wealthy's wife(like Caddyshack the movie)and the flight attendent looks like someone out of South Los Angeles who actually works a job for a living. Its a natural conflict, and I find it hard to believe Osteen would just start punching away, but it was more a misunderstood slight shoving and pushing match. The attendent just didn't want to clean it up. And Osteen was offended figuring for the fee's she should get a helpful waitress and was no doubt disappointed at what she got in the first place. How much is that worth?
Secondly, air travel brings out the worst in some people, the hassels, the paranoia, the jet lag, the time zones, the thinner oxygen. Age is a factor to and some people snap a bit like kids. Some snap a lot. Schuller, I guess another of northern european heritage just lost it because the attendent wasn't treating him well. I am sure if an attendent in either case sincerely tried to solve their customers problem, even if it didn't, but just with a positive "caring" attitude there would have been postively no conflict. Most of these people at the top of the Christian heirarchy feel like anyone at the top of their game entitled to a certain amount of fawning service from the help and respect from all comers. Its not that they feel like they are god's, just that they have made it to a Dominant station in life, but the smarter one's know they have to pay even the littlest of help well to keep everyone happy. This is what these two forgot. Even though Olsteen got a 3 grand fine, none of it went to the aggrieved attendent. So naturally she is going to "play the system" for all she can get but apparently is running into a credibility problem already. The solution is this. All passengers should have put tips of some sort in a tip box on the way out to tip the entire wait staff who will then divide it fairly. This creates a friendly service incentive for the attendents as well as a guilt box for the unruly passenger. It could be worth $50-100 dollars a flight to a good group of attendents. Plus the company should use employee assistance programs liberally with authority to give comp days off to complaining employees up to a point. You just need some safety valves to better manage the downside to air travel. Nobody goes into a flight thinking they are going to have to physically fight for their basic arrangements, so what happened was just one of those things. There are frequent reports of both passengers and rude attendents these days, but a tipping system would be an excellant solution. Also everyone should tip their waitress and waiters more as 10-15% just isn't enough nowdays. Try 20-25%. Once you go over the 20% mark they will always remember you and your service will improve exponentially.

[Flimsy Sanity]

The Shuller/cheese thing reminds me of the Life of Brian sermon on the mount where they are so far back they cannot hear what Jesus is saying. "What, did he say 'bless all the cheesemakers'?" "No, I don't think he would say that, I think he means all dairy products." Or something like that.

Loved this post. Losing one's religion should be worth billions as it means eternal damnation. How do you determine something so precious as eternal life - got to pay more than whiplash?

[Brian]

Well flimsy imagine the three stooges sitting first class with a surly flight attendent giving them grief. What do you think they would do? And wouldn't we be laughing and on their side? See, you are being an atheistic elitest here rather than a humanist.

[Flimsy Sanity]

As an apathetic agnostic, I think everything about religion is funny, even the atheists. When two opportunists go at each other such as someone claiming a push caused them to have piles against someone who bilks the emotional needy, it is just comedy gold to me.

[bibliochef]

this is swell; i have taught your work before in wmst contexts but may use this in my course on theory in religious studies where i am looking at religion and violence. maybe the real theme is religion and tempter tantrums

[Buena]

Funny and true.

Why is it that so many Christians don't follow the teachings of Christ?

If people would behave according to their religious tenets -- whatever their faith -- the world would be a far better place.

Imagine ...

[Alana]

I appreciated the term "Christianity Light". I had not heard it before. For lack of a better term, I had been calling the many pastors who preach pop-psychology instead of the Gospels of Jesus Christ, "Pseudo-Christians".

[Anarcissie]

Buena: '...If people would behave according to their religious tenets -- whatever their faith -- the world would be a far better place. ...'

That depends on the tenets (which are pretty contradictory in most religions) and what you think "better" would be.

In any case, the tenets of Christianity and the teachings of Christ are two different sets of things. In spite of Jesus's rather pacifistic teachings, the most devoutly Christian parts of the United States have been also the most nationalistic and warlike. I will leave this to the Christians to explain.

[lc2]

I have a request ... Barbara, your reaction to the Dem Convention, please. Also maybe some comments on McCain's memory lapse re homeownership.

Thanks in advance.

[Chickensh*tEagle]

McCain's staff probably gets back to him about which home he's going to next. ;-)

[Daniel]

Good post! I wonder if we'll be allowed to go back to ancient punishments used against people like the Osteens-such as stoning to death? Ha, seriously though, there is a lesson to be learned here: True evil of the worst kind can lurk anywhere, even under the "Christian" label.

[John K. Fitzpatrick]

The premise of Xtianity Lite reminds me of a tag line in the movie Chronicles Of Riddick: "You keep what you kill."

Also perfectly attuned to the self-concern demanded by capitalism.

- John

[Brian]

I thought I was bad but in the table next to me 3 350 pounders ordered both a main plate and fajitas, extra chips, extra sodas, including extra ones to go after a hearty desert. What struck me was the patriarch was hobbling around on crutches yet walking and the mother was on her cell phone with earth weary eyes and her ample daughter was staring at me with all the hostility of the streets, cept this was the suburbs and they were suburban. Maybe formerly of some city and before that some farm, but now they exacted a mass exceeding 1000 lbs amongst a three mere people. For myself, I stuck with the fiesta platta, and got some extra salsa. I ate as much as I reasonably could, then stuffed to the hilt stood up creeking the floor boards again as I raised myself above the booth with both arms. As I walked out the restaurant I felt about 15 lbs heavier and my knees creeked and I could feel it in my ankles. Maybe it was the extra ice tea. How many pounds does a big glass of that weigh? Or was it the sour cream, guacchymole, the orange dipping sauce, the creamy white dipping sauce, or the salsas? The tortilla cheese complex I downed filled me to the gills. But the misplaced family eating next to me never smiled or laughed once. They seemed angry, down, grumpy, walk on eggshells around them. Maybe they thought I was an insurance investigator as they made some comment and got even grumpier. But the food was good, and I think salsa and guacchymole is very good for you as are the cabbage filliings.

[Ingimar Gandionco]

Its so sad to hear that considering that people are looking up to them us role Models as Pastors (Leading the sheep). Maturity is not measured by gifts but by our character (Fruit of the Spirit) We should cultivate.

After everything was said and Done Let them be responsible to God

[Brian]

well tonight i went out for a hof's hut popular local diner/restaurant for a turkey dinner with some boiled soft vegtable soup and ice teas. it comes with real creamed corn which is pretty amazing to taste compared to lighter canned cream corn fair. It The supposed rotissere cooked turkey seemed kind of salty and processed to me compared to regular roasted turkey bird meat, and the hot gravey tastee indeed but prolly heavy in fats with a distinct buttery taste, and the gooey well saturated in something stuffing was salty and tasty too. They gave me a doulbe load of smooth cranburry jello and some boiled, buttered, creamed mashed with a little potatoe skins it, shich are good for you and a hot soft one sided buttered garlic toast that was delightful. The plate probably did weigh 7-8 lbs and after the food was gone maybe 3-4 lbs. This time I was able to slide myself across to the end of the booth's cushion by grasping onto the end of the table and giving it a hearty pull. It worked, and I pulled fast enough to jump start my feet onto the floor raising my upper body by planting my feet and lifting up on my knees with my thighs till I found my center of gravity and I was standing. I took two steps and was clear of the table and felt the floor groan a little under me, but not so bad, probably 3X6 floorboards. As I towered above the mostly older people eating in their booths I got a birds eye view of their various choices and boy what a sight I saw people eating. If I were a bird flying around that restaurant what a treat of foods I would see. This time as I walked, plumply to the door, I heard only a little sloshing of the foodstuffs I had imbibed with the collanders of ice teas.

[Brian]

Eating more fast food myself the past months I have gained a huge amount of weight, feel sluggish, and make floor boards creak as I walk over them. So today after securing a mixed up combination of Quasanawiches with their tasty fillings, a little sac of oil boiled tater discs, a Whopper with cheese, also tasty, and a new steakarich with all the heapings, optimistic on this one, I had a days worth of food, plus coffe to jangle the nerves and orange juice for my fruit allotment I noticed all the chunky overwieght people walking around, waiting for the commuter train, some even eating various breakfast sandwhices and the like. Only the homeless men were thin frankly, with their long pointed beards, unshaven head hair, civil war coats, and what appeared to be wooden boots. They were the thin guys. The rest of us "workers" had grown plump and happy with tasty hot sandwiches all at our fingertips. Is that why they put all those extra loops in our belts so we can let our growing stomaches out hole by hole till even that new large belt no longer fits us? Have to buy even larger pants twice in the same year? How does one go from a comfortable size 32 to a tight 40? Its interesting watching oneself grow into a replica of the workforce and I guess as a kid I only had a fast food cheeseburgler once and for 10 cents. And no I didn't get any fries with it. I use to think it was all the extra heapings of food peole ate but since I limit myself to just one sandwich per meal anymore, it really doesn't take a lot. I use to get two sandwiches with super sized fries and just a diet soda but that was like eating a thanksgiving meal with all the trimmings and a second helping to boot. Yes, I know a guy did a movie on just eating at Mcdonalds to the horror of his thin vegan live-in girlfriend tiil he had to abort his mission as he ended up in some doctors office. But when you do it yourself it brings yet newer messages home. 1. Cooking is darn time consuming. 2. Shopping for food is time consuming too, though the modern store is prettier inside with lots of attractions these days and even full service salty deli's. 3. There just isn't much of what you would call fiber in fast food, period. 4. Therefore it has less nutrients, minerals, and vitamins as these are no yams laden with natures nutrition box. 5. Eating fast food on any kind of regular basis makes you gain weight, and that weight is darn sticky. 6. I don't know if this is also true if you work in a physically intensive speed up factory and jog, cycle, and lift weights on your weekends except I am sure you would need more balanced nutrients. 7. Fast food is pretty salty fair compared to at least my homestyle cooking where I never add salt, but use various chilli powders and other sorts of seasonings. 8. But for taste and convienence fast food is designed to be tasty and it surely is. Tasty enough for the desire of a secod quasanowhich with each and every breakfast, and that second packet of oil boiled taters, and heck another super sized coffee with two of those little creamer tadpole cups.

[Brian]

for lunch I ate a roasted angus steak hamburgler sandwich drapped with a sad piece of yellow orange cheesee and some tasty crispy thin sliced real bacon and a dollup of ketchup squeezed inside. It kind of just sat in my stomach. Dinner was a nice mayonaised cold whopper with cheese.(just love fast food gooey melty yellar cheese). Three mornings this week I had McDonalds bacon egg cheese bisquits and loved them, wanting seconds, but I held back and fortunately for me they came with the crinkled fried tater thing that I always like. Last night I had a cold whopper with cheese at midnight as I had a hankering and yesterday afternoon a strange strawburry shake which I have no idea of what its composed of but it tastes good sort of like strawburry icing flavoring. Tomorrow I probably should visit a grocery store and buy an already roasted salted chicken bird sitting in its own salty juices so I get some real nourishment in my constantly expanding gullet. The sides might be some form of buttered mashed taters and some bread. I usually spring open a can of cranburry jelly for my vegtables when it comes to chicken night. Or better yet some buttered hawaiin rolls. They now sell little packages of them. Two to a pack. yummy. I was thinking of hitting a breakfast brunch bar and getting half a liter of soft scrambled eggs and some real pieces of bacon and a burrito for the carbs, add some gacchymole, sourcream, and green tomatilla sauce and I would have a pretty good breakfast. And then bring it home and eat it lying on the couch as I watch C-spann before my morning nap. Yep, thats the ticket.

[Brian]

-many months ago I blogged that the subprime mortgage problem would morph into a full-on banking crises, the worst since the great depression and what that would mean for us. My predictions have proven spot-on and I am accepting thankyou's and proper acknowledgement for the heads up. I have outpredicted the very best on wallstreet and government and with remarkable consistency without the inhouse expertise available to any banking or investing mogul or government official. Its citizens like me who make this country work and not the "people" who brought this fraud into our living rooms. Its amazing the lack of public outrage and passivity of the people. They have been robbed twice.

[Holly Redmond]

I just sat here chuckling at this- I pretty well have to agree with Jennifer up there, though. It is an issue of "celebrity" and then you toss in that Christian persecution complex and awaaaay we go. Remember, guys, they did used to feed you to lions, little cheese on your plate's not going to hurt you.

Also, have to agree with LC2, really want to hear your points of view on all of that.

[Holly Redmond]

Brian, while I didn't get all the food stuff you wrote up there- but wordy, have to say, I'm right there with you on the fact that people need to be more outraged.
I cannot understand the complacency and apathy that is strangling the public. It's disgusting.

[lc2]

Barbara! Where have you been?! Say your Op/Ed in the NYT .... brilliant. Why not post it here too?

Sorry if my constant nitpicking in the comments forum made you want to give up the blogging bit.

[David]

By the way, the flight attendant lost the case. Maybe some of this article by Barbara should be reconsidered?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-08-14-osteen_N.htm?csp=34

"Victoria Osteen, the co-pastor of Houston's popular Lakewood Church, testified no such incident took place, as did her husband and other first-class passengers. Victoria Osteen's lawyer dismissed Brown's lawsuit as a made-up story concocted to land a courtroom payday."

[Cinsel Sohbet]

thanks

[Cinsel Sohbet]

thanks

[resimler]

thanks

[muhabbet odaları]

thanks a lot

[Oyun]

Christianity fosters a distinctly un-Christian narcissism.

[Rev. Robert Kieffer Leaverton]

This article was a snapshot of how both parties fell short of the glory of God.

Well written and thoughtful.

[hosting]

Yes that's is a good idea. Thanks a lot. Good information.

[magzaci]

I'm familiar with Osteen Christians and I think a lot of churches (even if they formally denounce the "prosperity gospel") see him as benignly irrelevant.

Osteen speaks the familiar languages of self-help jargon and Evangelical jargon, so his character (which is clearly a performance) makes any pastor who denounces him look like a big, humorless weenie.

[winslowkno]

total findings risk non paper sulfate

[elaine]

"Celebrities are constantly misbehaving in public because they're rich, famous, feel entitled, and most of America coddles their sense of entitlement."
--Jennifer @ Aug. 13th, 2008

Trust me darlin'...it isn't just 'celebrities' who behave like this in public. A good many Americans share a similar sense of that 'entitlement', without being celebrities of any sort. Too many of the nation's privileged classes share in exactly this mindset, and the Osteens have just become wealthy and famous for preaching to the choir of selfish, narcissistic, 'me-first, I'm special' adult brats populating this country today.

[Phil the Pill]

Thanks to Barbara for voicing
an intelligent and balanced
view of reality. The inane
cult of optimism and happy
happy joy joy positive thinking is mindless cultic
psychobabble, nothing more.
You cannot "visualize" world peace because visualization is simply a delusional and subjective
mindtrick. Visualize death,
destruction and the end of
the world, if you like...
NOT WORRIED

[muzikdinle]

Thanks to Barbara for voicing
an intelligent and balanced
view of reality. The inane
cult of optimism and happy
happy joy joy positive thinking is mindless cultic
psychobabble, nothing more.
You cannot "visualize" world peace because visualization is simply a delusional and subjective
mindtrick. Visualize death,
destruction and the end of
the world, if you like...
NOT WORRIED

[matbaa]

I have a request ... Barbara, your reaction to the Dem Convention, please. Also maybe some comments on McCain's memory lapse re homeownership.

Thanks in advance

[ilahin]

I have a request ... Barbara, your reaction to the Dem Convention, please. Also maybe some comments on McCain's memory lapse re homeownership.

[matbaa]

I have a request ... Barbara, your reaction to the Dem Convention, please. Also maybe some comments on McCain's memory lapse re homeownership.

[matbaa]

I have a request ... Barbara, your reaction to the Dem Convention, please. Also maybe some comments on McCain's memory lapse re homeownership.

[oyun]

In any case, the tenets of Christianity and the teachings of Christ are two different sets of things. In spite of Jesus's rather pacifistic teachings, the most devoutly Christian parts of the United States have been also the most nationalistic and warlike. I will leave this to the Christians to explain.

[kral oyun]

I have a request ... Barbara, your reaction to the Dem Convention, please. Also maybe some comments on McCain's memory lapse re homeownership.

[kral oyun]

In any case, the tenets of Christianity and the teachings of Christ are two different sets of things. In spite of Jesus's rather pacifistic teachings, the most devoutly Christian parts of the United States have been also the most nationalistic and warlike. I will leave this to the Christians to explain....

[evden eve nakliyat]

In any case, the tenets of Christianity and the teachings of Christ are two different sets of things. In spite of Jesus's rather pacifistic teachings, the most devoutly Christian parts of the United States have been also the most nationalistic and warlike. I will leave this to the Christians to explain.

[kral oyun]

As an apathetic agnostic, I think everything about religion is funny, even the atheists. When two opportunists go at each other such as someone claiming a push caused them to have piles against someone who bilks the emotional needy, it is just comedy gold to me.

[videolar]

Trust me darlin'...it isn't just 'celebrities' who behave like this in public. A good many Americans share a similar sense of that 'entitlement', without being celebrities of any sort. Too many of the nation's privileged classes share in exactly this mindset, and the Osteens have just become wealthy and famous for preaching to the choir of selfish, narcissistic, 'me-first, I'm special' adult brats populating this country today.