Rush Limbaugh has been expecting liberals to start “whining” about the $5000 fine undocumented immigrants will have to pay to gain citizenship under the new immigration bill, but most liberals have been too busy chortling about the immigration-induced split in the GOP to make their own case against the bill. So let a mighty whine rise over the land: Undocumented workers shouldn’t be fined; they should get a hefty bonus!
All right, they committed a “crime” – the international equivalent of breaking and entry. But breaking and entry is usually a prelude to a much worse crime, like robbery or rape. What have the immigrants been doing once they get into the US? Taking up time on the elliptical trainers in our health clubs? Getting ahead of us on the wait-lists for elite private nursery schools?
In case you don’t know what immigrants do in this country, the Latinos have a word for it—trabajo. They’ve been mowing the lawns, cleaning the offices, hammering the nails and picking the tomatoes, not to mention all that dish-washing, diaper-changing, meat-packing and poultry-plucking.
The punitive rage directed at illegal immigrants grows out of a larger blindness to the manual labor that makes our lives possible: The touching belief, in the class occupied by Rush Limbaugh among many others, that offices clean themselves at night and salad greens spring straight from the soil onto one’s plate.
Native-born workers share in this invisibility, but it’s far worse in the case of immigrant workers, who are often, for all practical purposes, nameless. In the recent book There’s No José Here: Following the Lives of Mexican Immigrants, Gabriel Thompson cites a construction company manager who says things like, “I’ve got to get myself a couple of Josés for this job if we’re going to have that roof patched up by Saturday.” Forget the Juans, Diegos, and Eduardos – they’re all interchangeable “Josés.”
Hence no doubt the ease with which some prominent immigrant-bashers forget their own personal reliance on immigrant labor, like Nevada’s Governor Jim Gibbons, who, it turns out, once employed an undocumented nanny. And as the Boston Globe revealed late last year, Mitt Romney’s lawn in suburban Boston was maintained by illegal immigrants from Guatemala.
The only question is how much we owe our undocumented immigrant workers. First, those who do not remain to enjoy the benefits of old age in America will have to be reimbursed for their contributions to Medicare and Social Security, and here I quote the website of the San Diego ACLU:
Undocumented immigrants annually pay an estimated $7 billion more than they take out into Social Security, and $1.5 billion more into Medicare… A study by the National Academy of Sciences also found that tax payments generated by immigrants outweighed any costs associated with services used by immigrants.
Second, someone is going to have to calculate what is owed to “illegals” for wages withheld by unscrupulous employers: The homeowner who tells his or her domestic worker that the wage is actually several hundred dollars a month less than she had been promised, and that the homeowner will be “holding” it for her. Or the landscaping service that stiffs its undocumented workers for their labor. Who’s the “illegal” here?
Third, there’s the massive compensation owed to undocumented immigrants for preventable injuries on the job. In her book Suburban Sweatshops: The Fight for Immigrant Rights, Jennifer Gordon reports such gruesome cases as a Honduran who died from inhaling paint while sanding yachts in Long Island and a Guatemalan worker whose boss intentionally burned him with hot pans of oil for not washing dishes fast enough. “Death rates for Latino workers,” Gordon reports, “have risen over the past decade even as workplace fatality rates for non-Latinos have fallen.”
When our debt to America’s undocumented workers is eventually tallied, I’m confident that it will be well in excess of the $5000 fine the immigration bill proposes. There is still the issue of the original “crime.” If someone breaks into my property for the purpose of trashing and looting, I would be hell-bent on restitution. But if they break in for the purpose of cleaning it – scrubbing the bathroom, mowing the lawn – then, in my way of thinking anyway, the debt goes in the other direction.
very interesting look on this situation . . .
Posted by: belinda | June 05, 2007 at 12:32 PM
What I think is wrong is to use the labor of others while at the same time looking down on them.
I'm a radical on the subject of immigration: I think we ought to let Mexicans and central Americans live in the U.S.A., work here, and take citizenship if they want. Same for Candadians. No more borders.
Europe has adjusted to open borders, and so could we.
Posted by: Hattie | June 05, 2007 at 12:57 PM
That's Canadians, of course.
Posted by: Hattie | June 05, 2007 at 12:58 PM
I'm a bus driver. My company serves a couple of wealthy suburbs. Recently, the county commissioners were about to eliminate night, weekend and early morning service because "nobody" rides those buses. The move was blocked by a coalition of restaurant owners who explained that they would have to go out of business if their workers didn't have bus service. Hundreds of restaurant workers, janitors, housekeepers and laborers ride these buses, but they just didn't entry into the commissioners thinking. The wealthy are surrounded by thousands of invisible little busy bees who make things happen at a level they do not care to notice.
Posted by: Jon | June 05, 2007 at 01:04 PM
It is astounding to me that the author of Nickel and Dimed cannot see that the major cause of low wages in this country (aside from greed) is the artificially inflated demand resulting from illegal immigration. It's not as if the government is trying to help poor people, but even if it were trying and adopting sensible immigration rules they would be defeated by the illegals and the scum who employ them. One of the overriding principles in which this country and its citizens take extreme pride is the sense of justice and fairplay that is, in theory, honored here. Illegal immigrants are not observing this rule of conduct and deserve nothing (save some grudging admiration for their tenacity maybe) from our government except a ticket back to their homeland. It is amazing to me that people like Barbara get hung up on whether or not these illegals are treated with dignity and respect (proper behavior I agree) when the key point is - they are illegal. You can get into all the cost/benefit anlysis you want and frankly i vastly prefer to see the uneducated of South America coming here to take low paying jobs over the educated Europeans coming to take our middle class jobs away, but the fact reamins - illegals exacerbate the poverty problem and do it by breaking the law. You cannot support this.
Posted by: dennis | June 05, 2007 at 01:10 PM
I once worked for a migrant health center in California and on certain farms it was common for workers to be picked up by the INS on payday, before the checks were distributed, and deported. Everyone who had contact with the workers knew it, we tried to warn them that they were working in a perilous situation, but the need to earn money to send home was so great that they took the chance. And, we all knew that the grower had a deal with the INS.
Posted by: Maya's Granny | June 05, 2007 at 01:21 PM
If illegal workers were not here, there would be more jobs for unskilled Americans, and those jobs would pay much better. Why hire an unskilled American for a competitive wage when you can get an illegal immigrant for below minimum wage?
How can Barbara E. possibly not think of this? She's so worried about unskilled Americans, yet likes to see their jobs stolen illegally.
And if America is such a lousy country, by the way, why are people trying so hard to get in? Americans want to stay here, and most of the world would like to be here also. Why, if it's such a miserable system?
Progressive ideology makes very little sense.
Posted by: realpc | June 05, 2007 at 04:05 PM
The fine of $5000 isn't high enough if U.S. citizenship is considered to have an economic value. In many cases, they pay the coyotes more to be smuggled across the border.
Birthright citizenship, which arose from the need to give former slaves the status of citizens, must be stopped if there is to be any meaningful reduction in illegal immigration. Few developed countries grant automatic citizenship to anyone born there unless at least one of the parents is a citizen.
About forty miles north of the border with Mexico, there is a border station on Route 95 in Yuma, AZ. When I stopped to show my ID, I asked the border patrolman why there was a station there. He told me that 95 was a major smuggling route for illegal immigrants who were heading to Phoenix.
What annoys me about the Mexican immigrants is that they don't assimilate. My maternal grandparents were from Czechoslovakia, and even though they spoke Slovak at home, they learned English. Offering English as a second language in the schools rather than forcing the parents to learn English along with their children was a big mistake.
Posted by: paperpusher666 | June 05, 2007 at 04:15 PM
I think I figured out what Barbara E. wants. Let everyone in who wants to immigrate, with no restrictions. Force busiensses to pay them, and all workers, at least a living wage.
Of course, this will result in unemployment. But we could simply have the government create jobs. And the rest of the unemployed would get a living wage from the government.
Paying for all that is no problem -- just raise taxes on wealthy business owners. Oh wait a minute -- the business owners would be paying high salaries and benefits to unskilled workers, so they might not be wealthy any more. Ok then, just raise taxes for all the government workers. The government pays them, and they pay the government. Like perpetual motion. Hey, it might work.
Posted by: realpc | June 05, 2007 at 04:20 PM
paperpusher: Mexicans do too assimilate, and they would assimilate even faster if it weren't for persistent mainstream racism and cultural chauvinism.
Czech immigrants don't come up against such barriers to acceptance; it really is a stretch to equate the immigrant experiences of Czechs with those of Mexicans.
Posted by: Hattie | June 05, 2007 at 09:39 PM
So there are people who broke our laws to come into our country because they are desperately poor with families to feed. Desperate enough to work for less than minimum wage, no health benefits, no workers comp and no social security retirement credits, doing the jobs that, supposedly, no American will do. Maybe No American can afford to work for that same low pay because we are not the ones getting helped with free medical care, free housing and free transportation to and from the fields, the wealthy homes, the construction sites and the food processing plants. But who really benefits from the give-aways and amnesty given to the law-breakers?
The law-breakers benefit because they can get treatment for free at any US hospital. Unlike the poor and uninsured American, illegals don't have miniscule savings/checking accounts (which contain at most, next month's rent) that will be seized for non-payment of medical bills. They don't own a home on American soil, however mortgaged to the hilt and however humble and modest, that can be seized in lieu of unpaid any hospital bills. Their babies born here, known as "anchor babies", automatically get granted citizenship status which entitles them to welfare, food stamps, Medicaid, SSI and a "free" public education. But none of this is free: it comes at a price, a price borne by poor and needy Americans who can't get any help at all.
Poor Americans with disabilities or who are otherwise "unemployable" and who lack any family resources are routinely denied Medicaid, SSI and welfare unless they happen to be single mothers with young children. Meanwhile, the anchor babies grow up here on the dole getting all kinds of help at the expense of the taxpayers.
Not to digress, but the most heavily taxed form of income is that on workers: the earned income tax. The rich, whose income derives mainly from passive sources such as investments, pay a much smaller percentage. So this burden is borne by the taxpaying citizens of this country who are least able to afford it (especially if you're low-income but self-employed!).
The public schools where illegals' kids get a free education are paid for by the property taxes levied on low-income elderly homeowners, working-poor homeowners (you know, those victims of downward mobility), and everybody else who owns a home.
Now many illegals make enough money to buy cars - which they drive without insurance or even a drivers license. When they get in an accident and injure, permanently disable or maybe even kill a poor American working-class stiff who was on their way to work - driving legally to get to their McJob - who pays for that? Not the illegal immigrant! And not the greedy rich who illegally hire them and thus bring them here in the first place! But I can assure you with a mathematical certainty that the American citizens who ends up disabled under such circumstances gets denied the help from SSI, welfare and Medicaid while they fight for decades to get that pittance of SSI and Medicaid after their lives have been ruined.
Meanwhile, our eviscerated social safety net programs (which were supposed to help poor Americans) are even more strained - to the breaking point.
And what do the governments of countries where illegals hail from do about any recompense to our citizens so harmed by their citizens (who came here illegally or who came legally but stayed here illegally)? Try suing - then enforcing the judgment - against someone who can conveniently skate back out of the country like thieves in the night, after they caused an accident leaving your life totally ruined and without any recourse. All the cheap produce in the world, all the cheap landscaping of the wealthy people's lawns, and all the cheap processed food in the world does not begin to compensate for the very real pain and very real losses suffered by poor Americans under the status quo.
Speaking of cheap produce, landscaping, construction and food processing plant jobs - whoever said no American would not do that sort of work? Seems to me that wealthy people on both sides of the political aisle have a vested interest in giving the illegals everything at the expense of poor and needy law-abiding American citizens. That vested interest is in maintaining dirt cheap prices for others' labor thus reducing the cost of services benefitting them and perpetuating a slave class to ensure their own socioeconomic position. Before illegal immigrants, L-1 and H-1B visa workers (many who become illegals when they over-stay their visas) unemployed poor Americans and prison chain gangs picked the produce and did all these jobs that "no American wants to do".
Laslty, there is the costs of increasing the building of more prisons. More prison space is needed when illegals break the law, such as one recent serial killer from Mexico, all the countless drug mules and weapons smugglers. I would say they (the illegals and their country's government) owes us - big time.
In sum, Barbara you are wrong. We, the 75% of Americans (who comprise the working classes) do NOT owe illegal immigrants anything.
Posted by: Jacqueline | June 06, 2007 at 12:34 AM
Well, there is no doubt about it: people who used to have it pretty good are now leading crappy lives, and it is not their fault. It is not the fault of the Mexicans either.
Guess whose fault it really is.
Answer: international capitalism.
Posted by: Hattie | June 06, 2007 at 01:43 AM
Hattie: "Czech immigrants don't come up against such barriers to acceptance"
What could you possibly be thinking? I don't know about Czech immigrants, but Irish, Italian, Chinese, Korean and Jewish immigrants faced tremendous barriers to acceptance, but they assimilated anyway. They did their best to succeed, instead of making excuses.
Posted by: realpc | June 06, 2007 at 03:50 AM
There's no conflict between what she wrote in Nickle and Dimed and what she wrote here.
Immigration may be depressing wages in certain sectors (though the extent of this is usually overtstated), however, the problem here, from her consistently pro-labor stance in both writings, is that globalization allows capital to move all over the world in search of the cheapest labor while anti-immigration policy forbids labor from moving all over the world in search of the best pay.
Posted by: Jennifer | June 06, 2007 at 05:17 AM
Jennifer! Bravo! That is exactly right. Capitalism wants cheap labor, so they send low wage jobs to Mexico, which depresses their economy, so Mexicans move here for higher wages. Hey, maybe we should have one wage standard for the whole world. No wait, that's socialism!! Imagine that...
peace! Charley
Posted by: Charley | June 06, 2007 at 08:11 AM
BE, I feel for you, casting your pearls before swine like you do.
Why blame the immigrants for depressed wages, when the problem is employers paying people under the table? You can round people up and send them back all you want -- as long as employers are permitted to pay people under the table with no crackdowns, Americans will get the same under-the-table wages immigrants now get.
And I'm sure most of the people bitching the loudest about the illegals are the first ones who will start bleeding internally when oranges cost $5 apiece.
Posted by: promentalbackwash | June 06, 2007 at 08:42 AM
Typical Barbara E deception. She starts this article by citing ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, then drops the adjective denoting their legal status and continues the article implying their entitlement to life in the US exceeds the rights of actual citizens. All of this breezes by readers whose blood pressure is conditioned to rise at the sight of Rush Limbaugh’s name in print.
She rhetorically asks about the crimes of ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, suggesting they’ve done no more than engage in a little breaking & entering. Of course that’s a flat-out lie. First, illegal immigrants break the law by slipping into America. I don’t blame them for their desire to come here. I’d like to fix it so they can. But we do have laws.
Second, America’s hospitals have become maternity wards for pregnant illegal immigrants who give birth to American Citizens. That’s how they ensure themselves of legal rights in this country. That’s bad. Very bad.
After clogging the maternity wards of US hospitals, the offspring, these new American citizens who came through the back door, flood our public schools with children who fail to graduate from high school. The children of illegal Mexican immigrants don’t graduate. They drop out. They don’t go to college. They don’t climb like the Asians of today or the Europeans of the last two centuries.
What’s more is that the Mexican government knows it benefits from oiling the door at the border. Which countries actually imprison their citizens? Cuba. Yes. North Korea. Yes. All muslim theocracies. Yes.
Where do Haitians go when they leave the Haitian hellhole? Do they slip over the border separating Haiti from the Dominican Republic on the other half of the island of Hispaniola? Maybe some do. But many find ways to cross miles of open shark-infested waters to sneak into the US. Great. What’s the secret of the Dominican Republic? Let’s try their tactics.
Barbara opines on what the Latinos do after reaching our shores. Well, yes, they seem to get work. Often unpleasant work. Some cut lawns. I grew up cutting lawns. I will cut my lawn today. But the country has seen an explosion in demand for yard maintenance. Kids no longer take these jobs. Why? I’m not sure. But that’s okay. The immigrants can have the lawn-cutting jobs if they want them.
Are the lawn-cutter illegal immigrants? Probably. What about the people who clean offices? Some are illegal, I’m sure. But others aren’t. In NY City many of the people cleaning offices are newly arrived Russians or others from the former Soviet Union. They are not illegals. Most members of that group expect to rise from office cleaning to something more. I’ve worked with many Russian immigrants. In my experience they moved off the bottom rung with remarkable speed.
Meanwhile, the Mexicans and other Latinos who come here to work at the worst low-wage jobs create huge burdens on social services. Hospitals, schools, police. Schools in the Sunset Park section of Brooklyn were over-run, seriously overcrowded with the offspring of illegal immigrants. Moreover, Sunset Park sees more than its fair-share of violent crime. Guess who commits it? Mexicans, or other Latinos, especially those with gang affiliations. Murder is still a problem in the Latino community. The only factor mitigating the crime problem is the increase in the number of whites in the Sunset Park neighborhood. The housing stock is good. And it is getting more expensive as whites acquire the better properties and, by their presence, replace criminals. Some people like to call this phenomenon Gentrification. I like to call it Out with the Bad and In with the Good.
Thus, despite Barbara’s inane claim that we owe illegal immigrants back pay, it’s a fact that they owe us for theft of services. Unpaid hospital bills; unpaid school bills heaped on taxpayers; unpaid income taxes.
So let’s repair the system. Create a Guest Worker Program. Let people come here to work. Let them EARN citizenship by paying their taxes. But let’s open this program to workers at every level. Not just the clowns who mow the lawns and pick the fruits and vegetables. Let’s get the engineers and scientists here too. Those guys participate in the H-1B visa program. But the number of H-1B visas issued each year is a fraction of the demand. How stupid. Thousands and thousands of people want to come here to work at high-paid positions, pay their taxes and live. Why turn them away when they will become net benefits to the country? Why exclude them while offering the deal of the century to immigrants who will generate net costs to taxpayers?
To increase the success of opening our borders to Guest Workers, we must ELIMINATE the minimum wage. Doing so will minimize the benefit of hiring a recent immigrant who can be exploited. It will encourage English-speakers to come here. Eliminating the minimum wage will encourage upward mobility. It will spur the desire to get off the bottom.
But let’s forget all the nonsense of implementing the plan that is currently before Congress. Let’s just start a plan by which people EARN citizenship through payment of income taxes. That would be all the incentive necessary to get full compliance. We can start tomorrow. No ridiculous and impossible attempts to assess the history of current illegal residents.
Meanwhile, our Medicaid program would become the Universal Healthcare plan envisioned by Democrats. If our Guest Workers were honest workers, paying taxes to cover their bills, it might be possible to collect enough revenue to meet their medical expenditures.
Leave it to Barbara to pretend that an immigrant died from an illness contracted by on-the-job hazards. She finds ONE example. Meanwhile, the annual number of murders committed by illegal immigrants is a lot higher.
Furthermore, illegal immigrants often remit money back to the family in Mexico. Thus, they not only steal municipal services, their small incomes are spent in support of people in other countries.
Meanwhile, immigrants love WalMart. The people from Mexico want to shop at WalMart. Naturally, Barbara and her crew will say NO to that. Instead, Barbara et. al. will demand that low-paid immigrants shop at more expensive stores whenever it’s possible to force them to do so. Currently there are no WalMarts in New York City. Too bad. All shoppers are waiting breathlessly.
It’s ironic. Democrats are falling all over themselves to bring in millions of people from other countries who will work for less. But the same clowns want to stop WalMart from selling products at lower prices than their competitors. Thus, we race downward. Dems want to increase our base of workers at the bottom of the income scale. But they also want to increase the cost of everything those low-paid workers buy. That’s an idiotic collision of economic currents. But, that’s Dems for you.
One last point. The basis for citizenship must change. No more citizenship granted to a person born on US soil. Like European nations, citizenship should depend on the citizenship of one’s parents. Not just dropping from the womb into America.
Posted by: chris | June 06, 2007 at 09:23 AM
Well, p.c. when it comes to immigration, I prefer thinking to reacting.
Capital wants the cheapest labor possible, so it has fled to the cheap labor countries. Most of our consumer goods are manufactured outside the U.S.
But much work still has to be done on location. Illegals do the work that can't be sent offshore: construction, agricultural work, food prep, yardwork, childcare, eldercare, housework, and so on.
If anti-immigration people are sincere, they will of course not use the labor of these people. They will do all such work themeselves or they will hire people at fair wages to do it.
Posted by: Hattie | June 06, 2007 at 09:27 AM
Chris, y'know, it's funny. I'm an ex-New Yorker and I know dozens of current New Yorkers, including my father and brother. I don't know a single one who complains that there's no Wal-Mart in New York City. If you want to shop there that badly there are plenty of them in northern New Jersey and several on Long Island also, just a few miles away. No one is stopping you from going there. If you don't own a car you can rent a Zipcar for a couple of hours.
But here's a big reason many of us don't want Wal-Mart (or any other chain, for that matter) taking over the world: When you let one company have 100% of the market, they will jack up their prices through the roof. Why shouldn't they, if they're the only game in town?
Posted by: promentalbackwash | June 06, 2007 at 10:09 AM
promentalbackwash, you wrote:
"When you let one company have 100% of the market, they will jack up their prices through the roof."
That is one of silliest reasons I've heard in years for depriving people of a basic consumer desire.
You obviously have no grasp of the economic concept of Monopoly. Like Microsoft, WalMart is not a monopolist.
However, by preventing the low-cost provider from entering a market, you will succeed in allowing everyone else to charge more. But you're another person who doesn't care that keeping WalMart out of NY City means all NYers pay a little more than necessary for pretty much everything.
You wrote:
"Why shouldn't they, if they're the only game in town?"
Really. For your own good. Repeat Economics 101.
You wrote:
"I'm an ex-New Yorker and I know dozens of current New Yorkers, including my father and brother. I don't know a single one who complains that there's no Wal-Mart in New York City."
It's not the first topic of discussion among most people.
Try asking your friends and relatives if they would like to spend less when they shop. If they are well heeled and shop at exclusive stores, they might say "No."
They might prefer expensive brand names and boutique shopping. Price be damned. That's good.
But there are a few million NYers who live in lesser circumstances and want to spend less. They want WalMart.
I support their desire to spend less. Milk in convenience stores is at least $3.89 a gallon. How much do you pay?
Meanwhile, the convenience stores and bodegas all over the city hire and fire illegal immigrants. WalMart does not depend on illegal immigrants like most small cash-oriented businesses that operate in this city.
Posted by: chris | June 06, 2007 at 10:56 AM
Hey, I am actually reading Aunt Hattie and agreeing with what she wrote.
What day is it ? time ? Is this a dream ?
Well the crusty old gal does have a few good things to say.
Now just wait and have her annoying Aussie sidekick jump in, if she hasn't already.
As for illegal immigrants, you should make moves to make them LEGAL quickly so they can start contributing to the tax system.Why waste your time beating up on them ? They are here to stay and you need to realize the world is changing.
White picket fence euphoria is no longer an option.
Posted by: Wally Whiteman | June 06, 2007 at 11:48 AM
Jacqueline: Where is this free housing, free medical care and free transportation immigrants get? I guess all the immigrants I see on buses or lining up at discount clinicas or crowding into unsafe housing just don't know their rights, huh?
Posted by: Barbara E | June 06, 2007 at 12:19 PM
All those comments about depressed wages make me laugh.
It's so easy to blame Mexican immigrants for the few jobs that they get and white folks willingly employ them for.
Why don't we stop our tide of jobs going overseas to India and China? We don't make Wal-Mart (and other stores like them) stop flying the American flag everywhere when nothing in the store has had a "Made in America" sticker on it since the 80's?
No one gave a damn about illegals doing jobs until they weren't enough to go around and NAFTA is to blame for job scarcity, not Mexican immigration, legal or illegal.
Next time you get a customer service rep from India or that cute little blouse that was "made in China" or buy yet another car that may have been assembled here but was machined abroad, remember that you just paid for another job to shipped overseas.
Quit blaming brown folks for the sake of blaming brown folks and put the blame squarely in the lap of government (us by the way) where it belongs.
Posted by: ThatDeborahGirl | June 06, 2007 at 01:20 PM
Oh Deborah Girl,
NAFTA has nothing to do with job scarcity in the US you fool.
Pick up a newspaper and read the business section before you make stupid remarks like that.
You are right about blaming yourselves though. Maybe 2 % of merchandise in Walmart is made in Mexico and about 0 % is made in Canada.
Next time you walk away with 5 prs of Old Glory elastic waist slacks for 50 bucks, you have made the situation worse.
BTW, most Japanese cars sold in the US contain more than 60% of US made components. Without Japan, you would be close to a 3 rd World country (with snow).
Posted by: Wally Whiteman | June 06, 2007 at 02:36 PM
Wally,
Name calling is so very childish - grow up.
I don't know what rock you've been living under but there is more than enough evidence by now that NAFTA has done more harm than good to the American worker and reduced jobs here.
Here's some things for you to read. Free your mind and the rest will follow.
http://www.epi.org/content.cfm/bp173
http://www3.uakron.edu/worldciv/pascher/nafta.htm
http://www.vdare.com/francis/nafta.htm
Posted by: ThatDeborahGirl | June 06, 2007 at 03:52 PM
The minimum wage is low enough as it is. Of course most people want to get off the bottom. However, without the minimum wage, the very poor will get even less money. On the other hand, hiring illegal immigrants could still provide some advantages, such as paying even less than what other workers generally get, even without minimum wage, and getting extra work and availability from a desperate immigrant. Instead of moving up, some employees would starve, steal, become sick or homeless, and so on. Not everybody can move up. Up where? Somebody must remain at the bottom. In fact, with no minimum wage, the upward pressure on salaries for the positions that employers feel that should pay a little more than minimum wage would no longer be there.
If you want people to be motivated, provide free food and housing (and perhaps a few basic things like soap and toilet paper) but no money to buy anything else. Then, everybody would want to move up. The problem is that minimum wage may not even pay for those basic things. Eliminating it is just making things worse.
And since immigrants, even legal, will always lack one thing even if they become citizens, I don't see why those who actually have it should be denied citizenship because of who their parents are. That thing is having been born here. The place of birth is also associated with the local accent. American-born children will be able to speak, although not necessarily to spell, English like an American. Their parents will not, although they may still have the "right" accent in their country of origin, even after a long absence. In fact, if deported much later, such as in their teens, children born here would be immigrants, so to speak, in their parents' country of origin, having grown up in a different country. It is their ethnic origin, such as Mexican, for example, that distinguishes American-born children of immigrants from other citizens. But citizenship is their birthright in any case.
Posted by: Monica | June 06, 2007 at 11:47 PM
ThatDeborahGirl chimes in with her usual economic nonsense.
The three "reports" about NAFTA include one written by Jeff Faux. His last name tells you everything necessary about his writing.
Aside from dopiness of his report, which is loaded with mathematical and logical errors, he's obviously a marxists. That invalidates everything has to say.
The second report is nothing more than a public opinion poll on what Americans believe about NAFTA. Therefore, no facts are necessary.
The third report is simply an anti-NAFTA screed that ascribes every problem in the country to NAFTA.
ThatDeborahGirl writes:
"It's so easy to blame Mexican immigrants for the few jobs that they get and white folks willingly employ them for."
Blame? Typical of you. "Blame" has nothing to do with illegal immigration and available jobs. It's simple economics that drives the argument.
You wrote:
"Why don't we stop our tide of jobs going overseas to India and China?"
You mean like North Korea, Cuba and the islamic countries of the middle east? Like the nations of Africa?
You spout off as though jobs are the legal property of a nation. As though other nations are not permitted to compete in world markets. Sorry. Disappointment will always plague you.
You wrote:
"We don't make Wal-Mart (and other stores like them) stop flying the American flag everywhere when nothing in the store has had a "Made in America" sticker on it since the 80's?"
You are out of your mind. You know NOTHING about the origins and manufacture of products sold by WalMart.
Here's a few facts. About 15% of goods in WalMart come from China.
WalMart operates about 4,000 stores in the US and 2,700 elsewhere around the globe. Seventy-three stores are in China.
WalMart sells as much locally-manufactured products as possible. That includes in the US.
Food is 30% of sales. Hardgoods 20%. Softgoods 25%. Electronics 10%. Pharmaceuticals 10%.
Last year sales were $345 billion. Net profit was $11.5 billion. A very small net profit margin.
Your first problem is your inability to understand that money SAVED by shopping at WalMart is money available for other purposes.
You wrote:
"No one gave a damn about illegals doing jobs until they weren't enough to go around and NAFTA is to blame for job scarcity, not Mexican immigration, legal or illegal."
You are obviously way too young to know anything about this topic. Sneaking into this country has always been an issue because it has always driven up social expenditures.
Illegal immigration became an issue when our immigration policies shifted toward admitting Latinos ahead of more desirable immigrants. NAFTA isn't and wasn't the problem.
Meanwhile, the growing prosperity of the US created an avalanche of jobs for illegal immigrants. You think the opposite is true.
You wrote:
"Next time you get a customer service rep from India or that cute little blouse that was "made in China" or buy yet another car that may have been assembled here but was machined abroad, remember that you just paid for another job to shipped overseas."
Your economic ignorance is deep and unshakeable. Oh well.
You wrote:
"Quit blaming brown folks for the sake of blaming brown folks and put the blame squarely in the lap of government (us by the way) where it belongs."
The wave of illegal Mexicans arriving in this country is the fault of the Mexican government. Not the US government. But I know you know nothing about the Mexican economy or who controls it. But I can assure you the people running that country are not our friends. They want to offload as many Mexicans as possible on the US because doing so helps them.
Posted by: chris | June 07, 2007 at 07:49 AM
Deborah Girl,
Listen I am sorry you are pissed at losing your job. I mean the first thing is to lash out and try and find a culprit, but if you ever rise up beyond your Harry Potter dream world, you might find the answers you are looking for.
Before you start blaming Canada for getting your ass fired, think about how US corporations have benefited from this agreement and how they have maximized their owernship stakes, and how they could not have done it without NAFTA.
Posted by: Wally Whiteman | June 07, 2007 at 07:55 AM
Could certain folks agree to disagree with people without resorting to name calling and belittling? As soon as the first denigrating comment is made, I tune out the post. So whatever valuable contribution you think you're making, I'm not reading it due to the snide comments.
That may not bother you, but your persistence in posting on this forum despite being out of sync with the majority viewpoint here, leads me to think that you'd prefer your comments to be read.
While you're highly unlikely to change anyone's mind here, the only way you'll ever succeed is to be professional and polite. A lack of respect will never "turn anyone to your side".
Posted by: Ceci | June 07, 2007 at 01:05 PM
About immigrants, legal and otherwise, depressing wages, I believe it has been shown recently that their effect is just the opposite for most native workers. Many immigrants come here with quite a bit of money, skills, and energy and thus increase our wealth very directly. Those who are low-wage workers make many otherwise marginal businesses profitable, which puts wealth back into the economy and may make more hiring possible. As noted by some contributors here, immigrants tend to take less from the government in social services than they pay in taxes.
Let's at least dispense with the myths if we're going to discuss immigration.
Posted by: Anarcissie | June 07, 2007 at 04:31 PM
Barbara E. wrote: "
Jacqueline: Where is this free housing, free medical care and free transportation immigrants get? I guess all the immigrants I see on buses or lining up at discount clinicas or crowding into unsafe housing just don't know their rights, huh?"
First off, in NY and in some of PA's bigger cities, the day-labor operations have been sending out vans to pick up these illegal immigrants who wait in groups on pre-designated street corners and take them to their jobs. I have seen this.
As to the free medical, when an illegal immigrant without any insurance goes to the emergency room of a public hospital and cannot/will not pay the bill, they got a service of medical help provided to them while the costs of medical care get passed on to those who have insurance as well as those who are uninsured but own a home (however modest) that is often attached/seized for payment of that medical bill in lieu of money and/or insurance.
Since it is impossible to attach a nomad's under-the-table wages, hospitals compensate for these losses by getting more aggressive with their collection practices on those who DO have a social security number and a steady place to live here in the US.
The "anchor babies" get Medicaid, WIC and food stamps. And as far as the substandard housing you think isn't good enough for illegals, what about all the destitute AMericans who have NO housing at all? Ever think about them?
If you're an American sleeping under a bridge, hoping you don't have your meager belongings in a duffle bag burned, destroyed or stolen by malicious youths who target the homeless means poor homeless Americans got it better then the illegals being housed with a shower and a working toilet, even if it is substandard because more than one person must share a bedroom. Such a good deal, right?
Lastly, since the Welfare Reform Act has changed welfare from an entitlement to a block grant where the individual states decide how to use that money for their own poor and needy, the laws about who can get helped from welfare - and how much help they can get - is largely determined by each state individually. Here in PA, an illegal immigrant w/ little kids will get Medicaid, cash assistance and food stamps - while a poor unemployable American citizen gets turned away. I know from netowrking with others that PA is not the only state denying citizens legitimately and desperately needed help while giving that same aid to illegals.
Now you can hardly say this is fair, especially when Americans who are down on their luck have paid taxes during better times that went to support these social programs. Is it fair that now these former taxpaying citizens who need help can't get anything?
Posted by: Jacqueline | June 07, 2007 at 07:54 PM
Some years ago, I had a stamp in my passport that noted that I was given leave to be in the UK for five years for a job that I had, but that I had no recourse to public funds. Barring non-citizens from welfare isn't an uncommon practice.
Canada uses a point system to determine who can emigrate legally. Generally, they want people who are educated, have some money and/or skills and preferably are married or related to Canadian citizens.
A point that is missed in the immigration debate is the right of a sovereign nation to determine who gets to be there with legal standing. Without effective border control, there will be an amnesty every 10-15 years.
Posted by: paperpusher666 | June 07, 2007 at 08:25 PM
League of Women Voters is sponsoring a two year study on immigration in the U.S.
http://www.lwv.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=LWVUSImmigrationStudy
League will not take a stand on this topic until they have some solid facts to go on.
How novel, in this day and age.
Posted by: Hattie | June 07, 2007 at 08:47 PM
Here's some food for thought: For those of the "progressive liberal" persuasion, kindly read this insightful article below. Maybe you will understand where alot of resentment against the illegals and those who employe them (translating to the non-hiring of American citizens who also need jobs, too). Recall that there are many educated and skilled Americans who desperately need jobs who have been choved from the middle class down into poverty due to ageism and the insourcing of H-1B and L-1 guest workers. There is no "skilled worker shortage". There is however, a huge fairness deficit.
http://blindprivilege.com/white-trash-blues-class-privilege-v-white-privilege/
Posted by: Jacqueline | June 07, 2007 at 10:35 PM
Deborah Girl,
Listen I am sorry you are pissed at losing your job. I mean the first thing is to lash out and try and find a culprit, but if you ever rise up beyond your Harry Potter dream world, you might find the answers you are looking for.
*****
LOL. Wally, thanks for reading my blog. See, it's important to know that at least some people are brave enough to put their real thoughts and real names online.
Yes, Deborah got downsized and far from being ashamed of it, wrote about it on her blog for everyone in the known universe to read. I wouldn't have put it out there Wally if I didn't want it read so, fyi, it's ok that you bring it up.
Far from being angry, I know that I am still very fortunate. I have a sideline (well it's not a sideline now, it's what I do) desktop publishing business. My husband is still working full time. The worst that's happened so far is that I canceled my Harry Potter dreamworld vacation to make sure there was no more additional financial strain than need be. I could still go but why chance it? At this time I feel it's the safer thing to save more than spend.
Who have I lashed out at? NAFTA is not a person it's a policy. And although much can be gained by satire (Colbert, Stewart) Jeff Faux, despite his name, is as real and serious as it comes on this issue. You can check out is book on Amazon here:
http://www.amazon.com/Global-Class-War-Americas-Bipartisan/dp/0470098287/ref=sr_1_1/105-7885274-2292448?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1181337139&sr=1-1
Now are you quite done with your childish and immature insults or do you have something REAL to add to this conversation?
Chris is not even worth responding to any more.
Posted by: ThatDeborahGirl | June 08, 2007 at 02:19 PM
My prediction:
ThatDeborahGirl will start shopping at WalMart.
She will become an enthusiastic supporter of the company when she learns how much she can save by shopping there. She will then discover she has money available for other purposes, like vacations.
Maybe she will study Economics 101.
Posted by: chris | June 09, 2007 at 05:31 AM
Monica, I think that I've finally figured out your real desire. You want a job that guarantees you a minimum standard of living, for a known period of time, and whether or not there is money in your pocket doesn't matter so much as you are fed, clothed and have a roof over your head.
There is a place that you can get that, provided that you are under 42 years of age and have weight proportionate to height, no felony record and no major health problems: the U.S. military. Now this works best for single people, because you'll be in the barracks with one or more roommates and eating at the mess hall. Once you need family housing, you may be forced to go "on the economy" and contend with an inadequate housing allowance for the area.
I would point out that promotion opportunities in the military have never been better given the difficulty that the military is having recruiting and retaining people. For instance, 99% of eligible captains were selected for promotion to major in the most recent Army officer selection board. 85% is the historical average. If you are too old or undereducated (they require a bachelor's degree) to be commissioned as an officer (usually 29.5 years of age unless you qualify for a shortage specialty), having 60 semester hours of college or more will qualify you for advanced standing as an E-4 (corporal (Army, Marines) or petty officer third class (Navy) or sergeant (Air Force)) once you finish basic training.
Recruitment standards do change, so you might need a little less education to get advanced standing as an E-4. Having to deploy to Iraq for 18 months with only 6-12 months in between deployments is tough, both on the soldiers and the equipment. The models that we have for sustainment presume a 50/50 split between garrison (home base) and deployment time, possibly as high as 60-70% garrison time in some cases.
Posted by: paperpusher666 | June 10, 2007 at 10:10 AM
I'm in Canada, and I'm by no means good for military service. I'm fat, very unfit, and with back problems, although they got batter since I got a Shiatsu massage cusion. It's just too bad that something like that does not exist for civilians unless they are in institutions like prison or mental hospitals.
Posted by: Monica | June 10, 2007 at 08:41 PM
Forgive the ignorance, but does Canada have as many problems with illegal immigrats from Central and South America as we do? How do they handle it?
Posted by: Rocky | June 11, 2007 at 09:59 AM
Ahem...that would be "immigrants" not "immigrats"
Posted by: Rocky | June 11, 2007 at 10:53 AM
That's not an ignorant question at all Rocky. I am glad as an American you are interested in issues beyond your own borders. Most of your countrymen couldn't name the 5 Great Lakes let alone understand that some of them are in Canada.
Back to illegal immigrants. If any show up at an Intl Airport or border crossing and declares refugee status, then they are granted temporary asylum. Of coure they must prove danger, hardship in the home country or prove worth to the remain in Canada. We do send a fair number home. We get alot of African refugees that seem to favour Canada.Make fine cabbies after assimilation.
I am sure if we shared a border with Mexico we would have the same issues. Any Mexican or S.Americans are here on humanitarian grounds and arrived through the US.
We tend to assimilate them quickly.Get them paying taxes fast. I think if you treat illegals with dignity, they will respond much better than being hunted down like many would like to do.
I really like to learn what percentage of illegals, Mexican or otherwise are unemployed say after a year. I think the % would be almost nothing.
I think you have more of a sloth problem with your "meth head" population and and the white trash movement. Why doesn't anyone chastisize these groups ?
Sure wish I could take Harry Potter vacation though. Perhaps I'll save my loonies and toonies in an old mayo jar.
Posted by: Nelson Eddy | June 11, 2007 at 01:18 PM
Nelson Eddy says, "I think you have more of a sloth problem with your "meth head" population and and the white trash movement... "
I didn't know there was a white-trash movement in the U.S. but I'd sure like to join up. I'm sick and tired of the negroes and mexicans getting all that free medical care, housing, and transportation everyone's talking about.
Posted by: buena | June 11, 2007 at 02:35 PM
Buena,
That was pretty racist and uncalled for. My point of singling out the "meth heads" and white trash faction was to try to demonstrate that the US population has slackers and undesireables from all walks, especially the white population that feels this sense of entitlement due to skin color.
I think you need to focus on changes happening within your country and realize the "lily white" days are finished and accept and understand the new multiculturalism.Comments like you have made come from a person that really hasn't read much and I would surmise that you have a low level of education.
Nasty name calling is usually the only way people like yourself attempt to "debate" issues such as this.
How can you not want to help an immigrant if he/she only wants to work hard and support a family ? And usually at menial jobs that most Americans feel are beneath them.
The white trash welfare roll is alive and well, although they go about business in a different way. I think you know this, but feel it is more fashionable to hate visible minorities. Not buena.
Posted by: Nelson Eddy | June 12, 2007 at 07:03 AM
Eeeek! Nelson Eddy, I was trying for irony but it obviously didn't work. I suppose that, considering some of the other comments here, you assumed I was just another jerk.
In reality I agree totally with Barbara's article. I also agree with your comments.
In my unsuccessful attempt at sarcastic humor, I meant to portray the ignorance of many people here in the U.S. I've met and still meet people who believe that minorities and immigrants actually DO get preferential treatment -- and it's not just lower-class, uneducated people, either.
It kills me that intelligent, educated, usually kind, mostly liberal people are so brainwashed about the illegal immigration issue. This is another example of fearmongering from on high.
One friend, who is quite wealthy, said to me that the illegals come here and get wined and dined. I was almost speechless, but rallied in time to invite her to spend one day picking lettuce and see how she enjoyed the wining and dining.
Posted by: buena | June 12, 2007 at 09:08 AM
I am glad you piped up Buena. I do apologize if I was a wee bit terse, but this whole discussion is troublesome. I get frustrated at some of the ignorance I witness on a daily basis .
We do have a glimmer of hope though. The ME generation show positive signs that some of this racial bigotry will disappear. Many know no other way or means.Their exposure level to "minorities" is a daily routine. Some will read these entries and declare WTF .
Many are adapting to our new landscapes, sadly some refuse and continue to spew garbage all fueled on ignorance.
Ignorant is not a bad word. Most hear it and reel in horror.
Thankfully teachers and educators know that by sharing each others heritages at a young age, this will help lessen some of these very destructful attitudes,leading to a gradual obliteration.
btw, how does anyone get wealthy with archaic thoughts like your friend's ? Inheritance ? Most likely.
Posted by: Nelson Eddy | June 12, 2007 at 10:15 AM
"Nelson Eddy" (baritone?)is probably the pestilential Canadian troll who posted farther up the thread as "Wally Whiteman." Seems like his style. He is very sarcastic but has a tin ear for irony. Sorry I drew his attention here. He's been infesting my blog for some time.
Posted by: Hattie | June 12, 2007 at 10:48 AM
I don't think archaic thinking ever kept anyone from becoming wealthy; in fact, it probably helps.
This particular friend gives generously to charity and is politically liberal. But we all have our blind spots, knee-jerk opinions, fears, etc.
Not one of us is perfect, and we will never perfectly agree. All we can do is keep the siscussions going in a reasonable manner, and respect each others' opinions no matter how stupid they are. (a little joke.)
Posted by: buena | June 12, 2007 at 12:12 PM
whoops -- discussions. I think siscussions only occur between female siblings.
Posted by: buena | June 12, 2007 at 12:13 PM
Who might this "Hattie" be then ? Sounds like she is stirring up the pot hoping to attract readers to her blog.Some people are just plain pathetic, and this assumption "Hattie" makes proves just that.Besides, who was talking to you anyhow ?
If you cannot contribute to this thread constructively, go back to your "blog" and be miserable there. Maybe you are the wealthy friend Buena speaks of ? That's a strong possibility.
Posted by: Nelson Eddy | June 12, 2007 at 12:45 PM
This is all good arguments. But what every one seems to be forgetting is this. Americans, Mexicans, Canadians, Asians and every one else are before every thing else human beings. I don't know how and I don't care how it gets done. We need to make immigration easer and faster. PERIOD!
Posted by: Justin K. | June 12, 2007 at 04:10 PM
Heres an interesting thought that I read on the internet. "If the world became one of unity and lived under one government. Terrorists would not feel the need to bomb others." I don't know how true that is but a utopia is a nice thought.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 12, 2007 at 04:11 PM
I don't know Hattie, but I like what she says. Can't we be civil to each other?
Justin makes a very good point -- we're all just people. Time to get rid of religion and nationalism and all just get along.
Posted by: buena | June 12, 2007 at 04:31 PM
I don't know Hattie either, but she appears to be one of these bloggers that wiz around to others blogs and instigates people to visit by leaving maniacal messages. Drumming up traffic for her site by being rude and obnoxious at others blogs. Pathetic.
And Justin sure why not? Just make the world one big happy country . Any suggestions on how we can do this in a short period of time ? Abolish religion. We don't need it. We can go back to worshipping the sun, moon, stars..
Yeah, that will work
Posted by: Nelson Eddy | June 13, 2007 at 07:19 AM
I never said Abolish religion. I never thought that. I just quoted some one off the internet.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 13, 2007 at 08:37 AM
Religion is the root cause of most of the world's troubles.
Posted by: buena | June 13, 2007 at 09:18 AM
You are correct Buena. I think most conflicts in recorded history can be traced back to some form of religious issue.
Back to immigration. Didn't your knucklehead Bush say the US needed a "guest worker" program ? Well, that answers some questions. The first steps to accepting the tide of illegals and making them legal. That's a good sign .
Whaddya think Justin ? Can we be saved ?
Posted by: Nelson Eddy | June 13, 2007 at 11:13 AM
Wow, your just a ray of hope! I bet you even believe that what you or I type on this blog is going to change the world. Or worse yet, You believe that you can change peoples opinions by persistently belittling and insulting people.
I lack the education needed to successfully pull it off. I never said I know how. Not even once. in fact, what I did say was this, "This is all good arguments. But what every one seems to be forgetting is this. Americans, Mexicans, Canadians, Asians and every one else are before every thing else human beings. I don't know how and I don't care how it gets done. We need to make immigration easer and faster. PERIOD!" and thats it. I said nothing else. I never said anything about religion or saving the world.
Oh and by the way. you typed "your knucklehead Bush"..... he's not my Bush. I'm not god. I did not make him. I did not even vote for him. Even if I agree with him or not (and I'm not saying if I do or don't) he dose not speak for me. I know this is beside the point but I just thought I would get that out in the open. Plus I'm kind of bored right now.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 13, 2007 at 03:06 PM
Justin, you're right. You never said anything about religion. I happen to think the only chance we have to begin getting along is to get over our primitive superstitions such as religion. I doubt I could talk a radical Muslim or fundamentalist Christian into giving up their beliefs, though.
I also want to point out to Nelson Eddy that he's not my Bush. He wasn't even legally elected. I only refer to him by one name: the Twit.
He does have a halfway decent immigration plan -- I think because his mammy was Mexican -- but most republicans in congress are against it. One senator even called the Twit a liberal because of his stand on immigration!
I sure don't think we're going to change the world, much less each others' minds. But what's the alternative? Gotta keep trying.
Thanks to people like Barbara at least we're thinking.
Posted by: buena | June 13, 2007 at 04:28 PM
"All right, they committed a “crime” – the international equivalent of breaking and entry. But breaking and entry is usually a prelude to a much worse crime, like robbery or rape. What have the immigrants been doing once they get into the US?"
Oh....robbery, rape, AND murder.
"Two Brazilian nationals pleaded guilty yesterday to charges of human trafficking and illegal immigration for running a vile Burlington-based prostitution ring. The convictions come as part of an aggressive federal crackdown on sexual slavery, officials said."
http://news.bostonherald.com/localRegional/view.bg?articleid=1006360
The Illegal-Alien Crime Wave
http://www.city-journal.org/html/14_1_the_illegal_alien.html
"It is hard to fathom how anyone could bury an axe in the head of an innocent nine-year-old boy, but that was the unimaginable fate of Jordin Paulder of Fulton County, Georgia, on June 5. The killer was "Honduran native" Santos Benigno Cabrera Borjas."
http://www.immigrationshumancost.org/
Posted by: Larry | June 14, 2007 at 07:38 AM
Justin, things a bit slow in the playhouse are they ?
Jeez it's real funny how nobody will admit to voting for Dubya, but whether he was legally elected or not, the fact is he had enough votes twice to take office.
I see we now have "Larry" wishing to comment.Is Larry another pot stirrer wishing to drive traffic to his site? With select articles like he posted, probably.
Of all the murders occuring on the US, Twinkletoes refers to two involving foreigners.
We get your point Larry. Overall, I think most aliens and illegals are rather well behaved while in the US. They only want to better themselves and provide for the families back home.
Next time you want to play newscaster/anchorman, give us the goods on all the murders/rapes committed by good old US citizens, why don't you.
Justin, please use your spellcheck. It looks much better.
Posted by: Nelson Eddy | June 14, 2007 at 08:18 AM
robbery, rape and murder are crimes that are no more or less likely to be committed by home grown Americans. If your looking to stop robbery, rape and murder then you have to deal with the individual. My next door neighbors are Mexican immigrants. (I'm not saying if there legal or not.) They live a good clean life. They work hard and there kids go to school. There quiet and seem to be in bed by 9 or 10: p.m. In fact I think they have shown me a lot of patience.
Nelson Eddy you and I agree on that much at least. but the main focus of the play house is not the blog. It's the photographs. I am after all a photographer. As for my spelling, I thought it was pretty good for a dyslexic man.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 14, 2007 at 08:37 AM
Dear Ms. Ehrenreich,
We don't need to be paying the illegal aliens or thanking them. In the following order, we need to: (1) build that big and long fence along the Mexican border and we need to be very careful about whom we allow to enter in the future. (2) Then we need to sort through every one who is still here, issue biometric IDs and send the undesireables home. (3) Those already here who will learn English, obey the law and wish to become citizens, we should welcome. Sound like a plan? Tell Congress.
Posted by: Robert W. Marsh | June 15, 2007 at 03:14 PM
Your plan makes it sound like we should also affix the numbers 666 to our foreheads.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 15, 2007 at 05:28 PM
buena, with posts like yours, esp this one 'Thanks to people like Barbara at least we're thinking.' i hardly think you and your kind are capable of thinking. being brainwashed and misled, yes, but thinking, never.
Posted by: Progressive_Libs_Are_Not | June 16, 2007 at 02:20 PM
Progressive_Libs_Are_Not
The vindictive insults are just not called for. We are after all adults, right?
Posted by: Justin K. | June 16, 2007 at 10:11 PM
Hey this Marsh fellow is right to a certain degree.
He should have used the word tolerate as this is what many Americans needs to do.
I think he should mention that any illegals wishing to stay here should take an oath, similair to ones used over the centuries. break th oath, and either be sent back, imprisoned, or executed. I like the latter, as it will make many think first before they rob, rape, or commit other crimes.
I am doubting Justin is an adult. He seems to live in a childlike Utopia where everyone loves one another and things will be allright.
Either that or he is heavily medicated.
Posted by: Peter Pokemon | June 18, 2007 at 08:26 AM
Peter,
You don’t know me. So please allow me to fill in the blanks. Do a google search of my name. (Justin Kenward) You should find that Barbara E. has written about me.
Also, what you won’t find on the Internet is that I have stood in immigration protests and anti death penalty protests. I have and am currently assisting some one in a civil suite against a major retail company. I have witnessed shootings, theft, assaults and other crimes. I have been victim to hate crimes and witnessed them. Oh and death is nothing new to me.
I know you don’t have any reason to believe any of this. But my point is this. I might be young. But I’m no child.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 18, 2007 at 09:08 PM
Oh yah, you typed,
“Break the oath, and either be sent back, imprisoned, or executed.”
And how dose the constitution fit in to all of this? Or should I be asking you if you have ever gotten around to reading the constitution?! And lets not forget our god given right to live.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 18, 2007 at 09:49 PM
Justin,
I think the Constitution may need another amendment.
Documents written several hundred years ago need to be looked at from time to time.
Posted by: Peter Pokemon | June 19, 2007 at 01:42 PM
Peter,
even if I did believe that the constitution (Witch is the foundation for our entire system) needed a complete overhaul. I can't believe that the U.S. public would ever approve of the kinds of amendments you speak of. I mean come-on, if we did that then we might as well take a wiz on the graves of our forefathers.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 19, 2007 at 05:41 PM
Justin,
Things are kind of different now in 2007.
I mean how many amendments have there been ? 18 ?
Wake up son.
Our forefathers would be shocked beyond comprehension to see what 2007 looks like and the people that abuse constitutional rights.
I think they, as wise men , would want to start rewriting when they see the nonsense going on.
They would probably question your loyalty as an American too.
You do believe living in this country is a privelege, not a right ?
Your idyllic views are not workable in this day and age.
Posted by: Peter Pokemon | June 20, 2007 at 07:08 AM
Please don't call me son. One dad is enough.
I am well aware of the amendments, thank you. I also know that Washington's enemies marched around in single file lines and donned bright red jackets . Where as our enemies are hijacking planes in a stealth like manner. Be that as it may, Executions and imprisonment can not become an easily accessible solution.
As for our forefathers being shocked beyond comprehension and questioning my loyalty as an American. Thats nothing more then a ground-less opinion. Thats all.
as for my idyllic views that you believe are not workable in this day and age. Well have you tried? In a world where our justice system is being used as a path of revenge. Few people get fair compensation for there losses. A dry-cleaner lost a customers pants. The worth of the pants $100 maybe $200. The customer is taking the cleaner to civil court for 50 million dollars. (In other words the cleaner is being taken to the cleaners.) When we start making mountains out of mole hills we no longer have a level battle ground.
In other words, revenge and money is a bad reason for wars.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 20, 2007 at 09:16 AM
Justin,
You starting some type of church or cult ?
You ramble from one topic to another. Focus son, focus.
Your closing comment was so confounding I think you may be ready for your de-programming now.
Be good son.
Posted by: Peter Pokemon | June 20, 2007 at 04:01 PM
ha ha,
Ok old man I'll confess to going off topic with that last statement. Some how as I typed that statement I thought it worked.
oh well. Old man, It looks like where just going to have to agree to disagree. Your entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.
oh yah, old man! I'm not much of a religious person. So no I'm not starting a church or a cult.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 20, 2007 at 04:45 PM
Let me get this straight. You believe if someone BREAKS INTO your property then cleans it up you OWE them something?
As someone who lives in TN, where we give illegals drivers licenses and welfare, and sees 1st hand what is going on, that these folks are NOT "taking jobs Americans don't want". They are, in fact, abusing what America offers while doing as little as necessary, work wise, to justify being here in the first place.
This little complaint doesn't even address the REAL problem with open borders. They make it EASY for those who want to kill us to get in. If you knew someone out there wanted desperately to see you DEAD would you leave your door unlocked? And once you could prove they entered your property would you oppose prosecuting them?
Posted by: Michael | June 20, 2007 at 09:00 PM
Peter, If only you'd become a liberal then it would all be clear. The belief systems there is that the Constitution is a living, breahing entity. Easily changed to reflect a more "progressive" society.
Justin, You are trying to be a rebel with no cause. "I", "I", "I" doesn't play. Those of us older than you have seen MORE crimes, killings, etc. I sure have. Does this recuse you of your responsibility to think through a situation with ALL information available?
You seem to want a free pass based on your age, yet want to be taken seriously despite it, at the same time. Do you attend UCLA?
Posted by: Michael | June 20, 2007 at 09:16 PM
Did I ask for “a free pass based on my age?” Did I ever type those words? If so, where? I don’t even recall typing my physical age. Just that I was young.
You typed; “You are trying to be a rebel with no cause. "I", "I", "I" doesn't play.”
I got news for you. This is a blog! Nothing plays here. This is not a political debate. What we type on this page is not going to change the world. I change the world by taking action. I go out and help. I help people.
I don’t respond to money. And when it comes to immigration, that’s the metaphorical fuel under the fire right? Money? Like I give a damn.
You said, “Those of us older than you have seen MORE crimes, killings, etc.”
I’m a D.O.D. employee. I see it on a semi daily basis.
You said, “Does this recuse you of your responsibility to think through a situation with ALL information available?”
If you think that I just type blindly and that I have not done research, then you are sadly mistaken.
For me to say any more on this topic would be like beating a dead horse.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 20, 2007 at 10:32 PM
This Justin fellow is living in a bubble, that's for sure.
I am also sure a part of his thinking is based on the "me" generation attitude.
Forget about the free pass Michael.It is assumed many of Justin's generation have this sense of entitlement and this attitude is being projected.
I am postive Justin would think differently if he himself was a victim to some of this malicious crime happening around us.
Perhaps after somebody robs him of his bike and bitch slaps him around, his thinking may change slightly.
Posted by: Peter Pokemon | June 21, 2007 at 07:40 AM
I have had my house broken in to, My truck stolen and a rib broken in a fight. How old do you think I am? No matter. I have a feeling that when you read this your just going to see "bla, bla, bla,..." it's sad really.
Posted by: Justin K. | June 21, 2007 at 09:45 AM
The North American Summit is slated to start today in Montebello Quebec (in Canada for those without a Rand McNally).Interesting to know that Prime Minister Harper and President Calderon will set aside a good portion of the agenda to discuss Canada's need for Mexican labor and will hopefully strenghten the policies already in place to let more Mexican labor to freely come here.
Not just agricultural workers , but workers in oil/gas and other sectors.
I heard they got a Gameboy for Bush to amuse himself while these two other men accomplish something positive.
I wonder if Dubya showed up with his skiis in tow ?
Posted by: Larry In Lethbridge | August 20, 2007 at 07:53 AM
Jacqueline has it right. This is one area BE and I split on.
Posted by: Eric | February 22, 2008 at 11:04 PM
It always surprises me when "socialist progressive liberals" who oppose capitalism play right into the hands or the robber barrons. I do not blame the poor brown people for coming here to better themselves I blame the rich white guys (predominately) who make a fortune off this. The poor in America are screwed out of a descent living wage, the middle class are screwed threw taxes for social services to non-citizens and the rich get richer. Mark my words in a couple of decades there will be a civil war over this. AND I am not looking forward to it. I may be a gun owning conservative but I got more than my fill of violence my tour in Iraq. The elites will screw things up in this country by ignoring the law for short term profits and there will once again be a house divided amounst itself which can not stand. We either stop it now by enforcing the law or deal with the ultimate in lawless society (civil war) within 30 years or so.
Posted by: Christian | March 20, 2008 at 02:03 PM
I am a high school student and I recently read Nickel and Dimed and now as a school assignment I am doing an essay on the issue of immigrant workers where I am to research the history, statistics, pros, and cons as well as include Barbara Ehrenreich's point of view on the situation. Not only did this blog help but it is the truth. Barabara's point of view matches up exactly with every statistic I have saw in the past week and very news article I have read commenting on the basic rights these immigrants are being denied and the segregation and vicimization they are subject to in the United States. No, immigrant workers to not deserve the perfect life handed to them on a silver platter but they also do not deserve to be cheated out of their hard earned money and live in a life of poverty while trying to provide for their families whether they be living with them in America or still in their home country.
Posted by: Michelle | November 29, 2009 at 06:32 AM