Freshpersons, Welcome to Debt!

Welcome to Fleece U., where our mission is to take feckless teenagers such as yourselves and turn them into full-fledged citizens of our economy, meaning, of course, debtors.

Many life-changing things will happen to you in the next four years. You will make lasting friends, including perhaps the love of your life. You will drink more than you ever thought possible and bitterly regret it in the morning. You will lose your virginity, if you happen to have brought it with you.

Our stellar faculty ardently hopes that along the way you will be amazed by calculus and charmed by the tipsy conversation between Alcibiades and that wily old radical, Socrates. There is also a general expectation that you that you will come out of here with some hazy notion of spelling and grammar.

But never forget that your real purpose here is to shake off the pointless freedom of youth and assume the burden of debt. To this end, we have just raised our tuition in an attempt to keep up with such top-of-the-line institutions as George Washington University (now weighing in at $39,210 a year, or $50,000 with room and board). You will find us also charging a plethora of additional fees – a “student activities fee,” a “technology fee,” and an “incidentals fee.” In addition, we will be experimenting this year with a “snow removal fee,” a “lecture hall seat-use fee,” and the installation of pay toilets in the dorms.

It would be short-sighted to resent these fees, since they provide valuable experience in bill-reading, and will come in handy when you confront your own personal monthly utility statements. At present we do not charge any additional tuition for this training in bill-reading, though we are considering adding a special “fee fee” in the future.

Another thing that will help ease you into the status of debtor is the price of your textbooks – about $120 to $180 for a new, graffiti-free copy. True, this seems high when you could buy a hardcover of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows for $20 or less, but the aim is to teach you that a book is something to treasure (and, again, we charge no extra fee for this lesson.)

On average, you will graduate with a respectable-sized debt of $20,000, which will enable you to establish your all-important “credit history.” If we have succeeded in our educational mission, you will be a first-rate debtor, capable of making minimum monthly payments much of the time. As fresh offers of credit cards and home equity loans pour in, you will beam with pride at your achievement.

Please note carefully that Fleece U degree cannot guarantee you a future income that will allow you to pay off your debts. Many of our most promising graduates are now, three or four years later, working for $8-12 an hour serving up lattés, counseling disturbed youth or creating business computer networks. They are set for a lifetime of debt, and we are proud that they first began to accrue it right here, on our lovely mock Oxfordian campus.

We don’t have to remind you not to stigmatize debt as a condition associated with poverty. In 2006, for the first time, the average household’s debt exceeded its income. By becoming a debtor, you will have entered the American mainstream! We have confidence that you will go on to mature effortlessly from college debt to car loan to mortgage to medical debts occasioned by the ever-growing gaps in coverage.

You will see the value of all this debt when the day comes, as it inevitably will, when you wake up and ask yourself, “Who am I and what am I doing here?” You will be tempted to take long walks, read the Upanishads, or try out for a new career as a trophy spouse.

In a crisis like this, you could easily spend thousands of dollars on life coaching and motivational DVDs. But you won’t have to, because you’ll have debt to keep you going. You will get up, shower, and toil faithfully in your cubicle year after year until, in the fullness of time, your family acquires the debt for your interment (at which point we trust you will have remembered Fleece U in your will.)

So think of debt as the great motivator. Think of it as our gift to you. Because for at least the next academic year, we are not even thinking of charging for it.

Comments

[Dawn]

Thank you! I hope you will continue to scrutinize the underhanded ways so many colleges fleece their students and offer less and less for higher and higher costs.

I enjoy your humor and irony and turn of phrase, even while the truth is a bit painful.

When a degree from any college is necessary to open the door to a good job -- at some companies one can not get a janitorial job without an associate's degree -- the frustration and difficulty and expense, yes, of obtaining such a degree becomes nearly impossible for many of us. Thanks for shining your light on just one of their dispicable practices. Colleges/universities have a monopoly on education -- what a shame there isn't an alternative.

Dawn
www.wordsogold.blogspot.com

[Patia]

This is really great. It is so true the way student loan debt shackles us to a future of middle-class servitude.

One thing, though: Public universities should not be blamed for fleecing students. It's the lack of state and federal support that has caused many to increasingly resemble private universities in their funding sources.

By the way, if anyone's hiring, I have a BA in journalism and a brand-new MFA in creative writing. The university I've worked for for the past 10 years can't afford to keep me and my student-loan debt.

[CanadaKat]

Ah, Patia

Just so everyone's clear, GWU is a private university, not public.

Good one, Barb!

And I thought the course in "therapeutic horseback riding" was free....

However, you forgot my favourite fees.

Having paid through the nose for the privilege of largely teaching myself (hello...copying down notes from a board, or listening to a 'Prof' recite what I can read in a book is NOT education), I then have to cough up the fees for the papers to prove it!

[Anarcissie]

As the prophet Tennessee Ernie Ford saith,

"St. Peter, don't you call me, 'cause I can't go,
I owe my soul to the company sto'!"

And you thought that was just some quaint remnant of the bad old days.

[gaby]

You know, I could accept the ever increasing cost of education, perhaps even fleecing up to a point, if the payoff of it all - a good job with decent pay and benefits - wasn't such a utopia.

[Larry In Barcelona]

I have mixed thoughts on this post, but one thing is certain. I have several colleagues and other acquaintances who have decided to enroll their kids in CDN universities, with cost being a primary concern.Even though an American is considered a "foreign" student and is charged roughly double the tuition for "native" CDNS, most still see this as the most cost effective way to obtain a quality education without going further into the poorhouse.

It is shame that this has to happen. No doubt you have some excellent schools, but why are they so bloody expensive? A student shouldn't be burdened with such massive debt after graduating, even though Mom and Dad thought they put aside enough cash years ago.

[Hattie]

I really think increased funding for public schools is the answer.

[CanadaKat]

Larry in Barcelona:

The cost of education is, indeed, costly.
However, in Canada we do not have private universities. The costs to attend in Canada, whether native or not, is about on par with non-private universities/colleges in the States.

One glaring difference though. Here in Canada, there is tight regulation on accreditation of both universities and colleges. While someone could try to set up a 'university' and call it such, without gaining accreditation, no other school in Canada would recognize it. No employer either.

In the States, there are different levels of accreditation and, on top of that, accreditation is voluntary.

Which can make it very difficult for the would-be student to figure out where to go in the US for a truly quality education.

One other glaring difference. At the grad level, it's much easier to obtain student loans in the US than in Canada.

But then, maybe that's just par for the course.

Encouraging more debt in a debtor nation.

[CanadaKat]

Hattie - your comment:
"I really think increased funding for public schools is the answer."

I agree. But if it's going to come out of my pocket - and it will - I want to see some increased accountability from the schools.

While a degree in, say, sociology, may give someone sound knowledge, it in no way helps to prepare most of our youth for the working world they will find themselves in once they have graduated. Nor does it necessarily help them to earn enough income to pay back student loan debts.

This is why I prefer, and support, applied education - the kind that combines academics with practical knowledge and practical experience.

Don't get me wrong. I believe strongly in education for knowledge's sake - knowledge is powerful.

But I would never encourage my kids to choose a BA in Sociology only, or even first.

[Tysyacha]

Why would a janitorial job require an associate's degree? No one would want to go into janitorial service if they had to go into debt to empty garbage cans and do all the "down and dirty work" that most professsors don't do unless they're in their own homes.

I am extremely grateful for all the things I learned in college, and also for the "hard-knock" life lessons. Never again will I blow $20 at a single stretch trying to improve my pinball skills. Never again will I open another pre-approved credit card envelope unless one of my other cards is cancelled. Most of all, never again will I underestimate the enslaving power of sky-high tuitions and fees. With the salary I make now, I'll be lucky if I can afford more than a few Russian classes (if I wanted to take them).

Once upon a time, only the wealthy and intellectual elite (priests, bankers, teachers, etc.) could afford to get an education. Public school is still free, but what jobs only require a high-school diploma nowadays?

[Larry In Barcelona]

CanadaKat stated:"One glaring difference though. Here in Canada, there is tight regulation on accreditation of both universities and colleges"

Exactly why two of my colleagues are enrolling their offspring at McGill in Montreal and U of Western Ontario.

Much better bang for the buck.

A good way to check a school's validity is to see if they offer up a good medicine program. Chances are if the med school cuts it, the rest of the programs might be pretty solid.

[Millard Fullbore]

Here's George Carlin's take on education:

http://www.alternet.org/blogs/video/61955/

[delia]

You could always come to Penn State, where tuition and fees will cost you almost $6000 per semester--and then there's the books....

[CanadaKat]

Tysyacha writes:
"Why would a janitorial job require an associate's degree? No one would want to go into janitorial service if they had to go into debt to empty garbage cans and do all the "down and dirty work" that most professsors don't do unless they're in their own homes."

Ya know, maybe having to have an associates degree just to do janitorial work is not so far fetched.

I'm wondering if the explosion of available online education (particularly in the States), especially for higher degrees, might mean that in the not-to-distant future everyone will need a PhD just to flip burgers at McD's.

Just as long as there's no more MBA's. Please. Pretty please.

Seems everyone I know, and their brother (mother, sister, grandpa), already has one.

And I really don't want to have to get a DBA just to be greeter at WalMart - "Welcome to your choice for cheap plastic, have a nice day"

Pardon me while I run, screaming, from the room.

[CanadaKat]

Larry in Barcelona writes:
"Exactly why two of my colleagues are enrolling their offspring at McGill in Montreal and U of Western Ontario."

Your collegues have made great choices. They will get the bang for their buck.

However, I admit I am biased.

Then again, I have been on both sides of the desk in both the US and Canada and, if anything, my bias has only been strengthened.

[Andrea]

There may be a better solution: trade school.

Hear me out.

High School students want to go to school so that they can get good jobs and earn good money. An entry level job driving a truck pays fifteen dollars or more per hour, and offers health and dental insurance, 401k, paid vacation and a pension. The hours are long and there is physical labor involved, but no one asks you to attend employee development meetings to learn to "think outside the box" or use other buzzwords meaninglessly. You can learn to drive a truck in eight weeks for $1600 dollars, and no one can stop you from listening to books on tape while you're stuck in the rush hour traffic on route 80.

If you don't care to drive a truck, you can go to Culinary Arts school. This is really the best bang for your buck. Culinary Arts school has the highest entry level salaries, best graduate job placement records and best chances for promotion. Chefs regularly become celebrities. Also, restaurants are not the only places for employment. Corporate centers, private families, hotels, spas and all kinds of service industry establishments keep an in-house kitchen. Culinary Arts school is a bit more expensive and can take as long as two years to complete, but you're going to make your tuition money back in the time it took you to spend it.

All manner of options are open. Programs for medical technicians, manicurists, electronics technicians, auto mechanics, plumbers, secretaries... I could go on and on, but we all know why most high school students don't want to go into these programs.

It appears socially inferior to the college degree.

The secret that no one tells these potential college students is explosive: the average truck driver walks away from his truck with his dignity and integrity intact. He has not had to give more of himself to his job than he receives in compensation. A great many white collar workers would envy that if they knew.

[CanadaKat]

Andrea:

Very well said.

Although I think you overstated the possibilities for a chef a bit. Think the plethora of cooking shows lately paints a far better picture than reality. I suspect many more Culinary Arts grads end up as lower paid line-cooks for many years, not celebrity chefs.

But your overall point is well taken.

You are also right about the perception of colleges as being 'lower' than universities. This was the case when I did my first degree, 25yrs ago. Too bad. And trades can be so lucrative too.

Colleges in Canada also - although they cannot grant degrees (instead grant diplomas - equivalent, I would think, to the US Associates Degree)- focus on 'the trades'. Always have. Here, they are considered to be between high school and university in terms of academics.

A few of the best, and more forward thinking, are now collaborating with universities to provide comprehensive, applied, learning. An expansion, if you like, of the style of a few programs that have historically done the same thing (think nursing, teaching).

My daughter will be entering such a program next year. After five years, she will leave with both a 4yr degree and a diploma. Academic rigour plus hands-on training plus practicum job experience. In other words, she will have the knowledge, the skills, and some experience - she will be 'job ready'.

The very best of all worlds and I know she will get the greatest bang for the bucks.

[CanadaKat]

Delia:

It costs 6 big ones for just one semester at Penn?

Wow, learn something new every day!

That would get you two semesters at most Canadian universities.

[Dawn]

Actually, the janitorial anecdote was true. According to HR they apparently think it shows the person is 'trainable.' I guess a high school diploma isn't trainable enough for cleaning bathrooms....

Dawn

[Anarcissie]

People who go to colleges and universities to get degrees are not buying knowledge, which is available elsewhere. They are buying class position.

As class difference becomes steeper in the U.S., class position becomes more valuable, and therefore more expensive, especially since scarcity of supply is enforced.

For many people, investing the same money in trade school or tools, or in a small business, might yield much more return on investment, but the kind of person to whom this advice is relevant usually knows it already.

[Jeff]

Students: replace "debt" with "investment" and be proud that so many are willing to line your pockets for such an uncertain return... ;-)

[Tysyacha]

CanadaKat,

What would you suggest for me? I have a physical disability and take public transportation, so truck driving is out. As for culinary school, I am also very accident-prone, and murder-weapon-size knives make me more than just a tad bit nervous. I had to go to the E.R. twice because I was clumsy with knives and glass.

I'm one of the riffraff, the true undesirables and unemployables from a corporate perspective. You wouldn't believe how many rejection letters I got from companies who "truly appreciated my applying" and "wished me good luck finding employment elsewhere." As for regular college, I couldn't cut it. Flunked out twice. Not going back.

I have a job now, but it's funded by a State grant that lasts from year to year. I'll shut up now in case I sound like a drama queen (which I'm sure I do), but any suggestions?

[BW]

When I graduated in 1969, it was still feasible and common to work one's way thru college and come out owing nothing. Zero. Zero compared to any debt at all is a pretty big difference. Now, it seems my old schoolmates are in charge of the universities. See what they learned!

[CanadaKat]

Tysyacha:

I think Andrea's point was that there are cheaper, and quicker, alternatives to obtain a decent paying job, and then 'work your way up' from there if you wish - at least, I think that's part of what she was getting at.

Also, Andrea is right about colleges, trade schools,etc., being looked down on. Yet,here, college is about 1/4 of university costs for a year - in other words it may be a great alternative. And, let's face it - not everyone is strictly academically inclined (especially in their youth)yet parents often push their kids to choose the more 'academic' university.

Unfortunately, it looks to me like today's 'good' job market is tough and harsh - seems you either need a professional certification of some sort and/or a higher education. Even with a higher education there is definitely no guarantee, hence the high numbers of persons with Bachelor's and Master's working at low wage, service industry, jobs.

'course, with so much outsourcing, the service industries seem to be the only ones on the rise.

You can get your education in North America but you might have to move overseas just to find work.

And, no, you don't sound like a drama queen. There is discrimination everywhere - age, gender, disability.

About 10 years ago, in an interview for a position the first question I was asked was "are you planning on getting pregnant". No joke.
I walked out.

I don't have an answer for you - wish I did.

[CanadaKat]

Tysyacha - "Once upon a time, only the wealthy and intellectual elite (priests, bankers, teachers, etc.) could afford to get an education. Public school is still free, but what jobs only require a high-school diploma nowadays?"

Needing more than a high-school degree has been the case for at least 30 years now. When I graduated high school in '78, the only jobs available without higher education/certification were in service industries, retail, etc. One saving grace was the availability of good-paying manufacturing jobs - especially if they were unionized.

It's still the same now, only worse. And unions have all but disappeared.

Most of my graduating class had to leave town to attend university and most incurred a small debt to do so. But it was a very small debt. Back then, it cost me $2500.00 per school year, for everything-including room and meals. I was able to pay off my small loan debt (I worked throughout school) within a year.
Now, to 'go away' to school costs a minimum of $11-14K per school year.

Given that wages have been pretty much stagnant since the '70's, if not gone downhill, it's no wonder so many parents and/or students go into huge debt.

We may be going back to the 'days' you mentioned - when only the elite can afford school. Only it won't be only the intellectual elite, just the financial elite.

I wonder: would adopting what some other countries have done make any sense - specifically a system where the most costly of higher education is free but students have to meet set high school GPA's to qualify?

That would probably create howling protests from those who don't want their taxes raised (the money has to come from somewhere)at the very least!

[Lulu Maude]

What a bright future awaits!

And while you're struggling to land a job that helps you beat back your balance due, know that WalMart stands ready to help you buy those Secret Angel Exchange gifts at Christmas, along with tainted pet food and Third World linens so that you can sample the good life.

Pimp yr Circumstance!

[Book_Grrl]

Then there's the hoops you have to jump through; many of them. I have a BA in Art/Art History and am interested in becoming an occupational therapy assistant. This is a two year junior college degree. The problem is the prerequisites for the classes. I would need anatomy and physiology, but to get into that I need a chemistry class. To get into the chem. class I would need college algebra ( which I tried and couldn't do). I also need biology, etc. I'm not a math/science person but I really think I would be good at this occupation. I'm 43 and have been out of college for 10 years. This is all very discouraging!

[Brian Stewart]

"The fleece you degree" you mention is so true as that is what higher education does today. Tuition's have risen 10-fold at the school's I went to in almost 30 years. I think that is a total rip off of students and families as most schools have large endowments, a variety of governmental and corporate matching and research moneys coming in also. Most professors use canned lectures they develop early in their career and spend most of their time publishing or perish. But even worse to me is how colleges have taken over high schoolers lives in forcing them to compete at extreme levels to even get in. This destroys the freedom of youth very early when they are sophmores and juniors in high school. It distorts the families perogatives and introduces a big layer of stress into families they do not need. Higher education then co-opts too much of a students life years before they get in, and many years paying off the debt after they get out. I don't think you can even make the argument that all this competition and high costs produces a better society when you look at the many unattended problems we have no despite our best and brightest. I think what is happening is the students, and their families are being used by forces that can easily dominate and manipulate them. It relagates the student to third world status in their own country where they have no rights other than to comply or fail for life. When I was in state university I could earn enough doing part time jobs to pay tuition and living without taking on debt. I lived simply, didn't have a car part of the time, but had plenty of friends and we all had some time for each other so we didn't need to buy things. Today you need the income of a dentist after taxes to pay for the cost of any private school. State schools are half that, so you need only have the after tax income of a registered nurse. When I went all I needed was the income of a part time box boy in a shoe factory. I graduated with zero debt and was freer to choose what I wanted to do without all the insane pressure kids face today. And worse the education I got was better in many cases than what they get today. Once again, what has happened to America?

[Book_Grrl]

Brian-
I agree about the pressure on kids. If I was in high school today, you would have to put me in a padded cell!

[Andrea]

Perhaps I did overstate the potential of Culinary Arts school a trifle, but most of the people I know who went that route are comfortably situated and, at the very least, eat regularly and well.

I remarked to a student whom I was tutoring earlier today, "I say at least five things a day which deliberately undermine the premise of my job." I prepare students for college entrance exams. Those exams are based on a classist, elitist principle that there is "a certain sort of something" inherent -- inborn, mind you -- about students who will do well in college. The exams themselves pooh-pooh the value of extended preparation in their promotional material, which states that preparing only gives a student a 20 point advantage.

That amounts to saying that there is no value to effort and choice, and a great deal of value to "inherent merits", which is nearly impossible to define.

Impossible, that is, until you are willing to get ugly and say "the colleges only want students from the right sort of families who will add to the prestige and coffers of the school." Those students are raised with the cultural assumptions and knowledge that are buried in the test.

I'm sorry, I've gotten onto a soapbox. I'll get off now.

[Lulu Maude]

Higher education today is, to use a Molly Ivins word, a Bidness with a capital B. There is a college out there for you somewhere, happy to take your money, no matter how low your motivation, just as long as your assets are high.

[Chris S.]

There was a window of oportunity in the mid-90s when a technically saavy computer person could just go get a good job. Many of these people acquired their skills just by doing it and being in the right place at the right time. It was interesting to see how the university business took control of this and created something called "computer science degrees". Now, of course, many of these jobs require an expensive four year degree and entry level salaries have become quite low; funny how that works.

[Monica]

I suppose I'm lucky that I immigrated to Canada and not to the States. I'm surprised you are saying that getting in is so hard and that students work really hard in high school just to get in. That's exactly how it was in Romania. In Canada, I was admitted to cégep (type of college that exists in Quebec) without any difficulty (I think there was some English placement or admission test, and I did have some papers proving my education from Romania). I found school relatively easy and, without doing anything special, I actually got admitted to McGill, where I ended up not going because their translation degree was not recognized by the provincial accreditation board for certified translators. I went to Concordia instead. And translation is actually one of the programs where there is some kind of selection, as the number of students is limited.

I found school easier, because there is much less rote memorization than in Romania, where I had to learn several textbooks by heart (in addition to whatever else I had to know, such as solving math problems) just to pass the high school graduation exams. There, I may not even have been able to get into university, although that was in the late 80s and there are now universities that admit just about anybody for a fee. Of course, university admission exams were held soon after high school graduation exams, and whoever was not admitted to university could try again next time but had to get a job and nevertheless (if s/he still wanted to go to university, that is), try to get better or at least not forget what s/he knew until the next round of exams. Many professionals such as teachers or professionals in the students' files of studies supplemented their income by providing private tutoring, which I did not get, although my own parents themselves were qualified to provide such tutoring and would probably have answered my questions. Besides, after my father immigrated, it became clear that I was not going to go to university in Romania, and it was not even sure whether I was going to have time to graduate from high school there, which I eventually did.

But what are the "cultural assumptions and knowledge that are buried in the test" that students are raised with? How does one prove that s/he has those assumptions, and how does a different background show in the responses and affect the student's success? Could that just be about being willing to work really hard and have less fun for a few years, and wanting a degree really badly? Can't the "wrong" background be overcome one way or another, or can't the student learn what kind of answer to give regardless of what s/he thinks? After all, foreign and foreign-born students may have different social and educational background and still get admitted.

[huw]

I found the article a little disturbing. Many lower income students even with a career plan find themselves in this position and sometimes fleece u is the best option. In many states fleece u is actually a better deal than staying home, and working 40 hrs and going to school or even cheaper than the state flagship. For many students 20 grand in debt is actually a good deal. the article seemed like a very middle class perspective on a big problem. I found it ignorant rather than funny

[chris]

Book grrl, you wrote:

"I have a BA in Art/Art History and am interested in becoming an occupational therapy assistant. This is a two year junior college degree."

I think you have created your own barrier to block your success, which is exactly the form of thinking promoted by many contributors to this site. The prevailing attitude is "forget it, the deck is stacked against you and no matter what you do, you cannot achieve your goals unless you are of the priviledged class.

See the following if you want to become an occupational therapist.

Job Description: Occupational Therapist Assistants help clients with activities and exercises specified in a treatment plan developed with an occupational therapist.

OT Aides prepare materials and equipment used during treatment. They also perform clerical duties.

Employment Facts: Occupational therapist assistants held about 21,000 jobs and occupational therapist aides held approximately 5,400 in 2004. Most jobs were in hospitals and in the offices of other health care practitioners and nursing care facilities.

Education: Occupational Therapist Assistants are required to have an associate degree or a certificate from an accredited community college or technical school. Occupational Therapy Aides usually receive most of their training on the job.

Other Requirements: In most states OT Assistants must pass a national certification exam.

Job Outlook: Employment of occupational therapist assistants and aides is expected to grow much faster than the average for all occupations through 2014.

Earnings: Median annual earnings of occupational therapist assistants were $38,430 in 2004. Median annual earnings of occupational therapy aides were $23,150 for the same year.

A Day in an Occupational Therapist Assistant's Life: On a typical day an occupational therapist assistant will:

help clients with rehabilitative activities and exercises outlined in a treatment plan developed in collaboration with an occupational therapist;
monitor an individual’s activities to make sure that they are performed correctly and to provide encouragement;
record their client’s progress for the occupational therapist;
document the billing of the client’s health insurance provider;
A Day in an Occupational Therapist Aide's Life: On a typical day an occupational therapist aide will:

prepare materials and assemble equipment used during treatment.;
schedule appointments, answer the telephone, restock or order depleted supplies, and fill out insurance forms or other paperwork.;

*This is the most recent year for which this information is available.

Information courtesy of Bureau of Labor Statistics, U.S. Department of Labor, Occupational Outlook Handbook, 2006-07 Edition, Occupational Therapist Assistants and Aides, on the Internet at http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos166.htm (visited April 17, 2006).

[chris]

BW, you wrote:

"When I graduated in 1969, it was still feasible and common to work one's way thru college and come out owing nothing. Zero. Zero compared to any debt at all is a pretty big difference. Now, it seems my old schoolmates are in charge of the universities. See what they learned!"

Ridiculous. I, and many others, paid for college by entering Co-operative Education plans. I went to engineering school and alternated semeters of school with semesters of work. Engineering work. Not pumping gas. Real engineering work for companies that were likely to offer permanent employment after college.

Meanwhile, why should anyone expect to receive something of enormous value for a low price?

Are people who become professors bound by a vow of poverty? Should professors work cheap after earning Ph.D.s?

Maybe the demand for English professors with Ph.Ds is weak. Maybe demand for Sociology professors is weak. But demand for engineering professors is high. Science professors too. Also accounting professors, finance professors and others who are prepared to teach subjects employers value.

Is land for colleges cheaper than land for other purposes? Is class-room space cheaper for universities in NY City just because the tenant is a purveyor of higher education? No.

If you want a top-notch education for free, get yourself accepted to Cooper Union in New York City, one of the finest engineering and art schools in the country.

Cooper Union owns the land beneath the Chrysler Building. The school receives enough rent from the land and income from its endowment to allow students to attend FREE.

What's the catch? The school must accept you. It's tough to get in. Should you expect anything else? A great school AND no tuition?

Meanwhile, every school I know accepts students with good grades and financial need. Good students with no money often receive huge breaks on tuition.

Yale offers a program in which you pay nothing while attending and then repay your debt over a very long period after graduation. Is that a bad offer? I think not.

[chris]

Chris S, you wrote:

"There was a window of oportunity in the mid-90s when a technically saavy computer person could just go get a good job."

Every career has passed through this period of easy entry.

When my grandfather attended law school, a student entered law school rather than a traditional college. Law school was not a graduate program studied after obtaining a bachelor's degree. Law school was the program you entered after high school.

You wrote:

"Many of these people acquired their skills just by doing it and being in the right place at the right time."

Wall Street was the same way in many segments. Traders were often people with nothing more than high school diplomas. That was the case until the 1980s, when a transition to people with college degrees began. The course of study didn't matter. Everything important was learned on the job.

You wrote:

"It was interesting to see how the university business took control of this and created something called "computer science degrees"."

Bill Gates never graduated from Harvard. I believe it is still possible to dazzle Microsoft with brilliance by hitting a high score on its aptitude test. On-the-job experience and a solid demonstration of intelligence will probably get you in the door. But the competition is tough.

Meanwhile, I'm not sure if there are any barriers to anyone becoming a "Microsoft Certified Software Geek". I think you can buy the study books and take the certification tests, and if you pass, you pass. I doubt you even need a high school diploma.

The same is true of Wall Street. For people who would rather not spend a couple of years in business school after finishing college, there is a Certified Financial Analyst program, or CFA. This certification is in many ways better than an MBA because it focuses on Wall Street, and it is especially useful for those who want to become securities analysts.

There are three tests an applicant must pass. The tests are given once a year. The cost of obtaining a CFA designation is a small fraction of the cost of obtaining an MBA.

You wrote:

"Now, of course, many of these jobs require an expensive four year degree and entry level salaries have become quite low; funny how that works."

It's just tough luck if there is a seller's market in some jobs. But that's life. Either, the cost of entry is high in time and capital because the standards must be high -- brain surgeon -- or there are too many people attempting to fill too few positions and the standards for entry are low.

It is foolish to think a job should offer high pay because you wish it to be so.

Teaching positions are easy to get. Teaching certification is easy to get -- except in math and science, subjects which people claim they cannot do.

Like Book Grrl, who says she can't pass the math class she needs to take the other classes required for an occupational therapy degree.

The only people who claim woman cannot do math, are women. However, if women believe they cannot do basic math, then why would employers ignore this self-professed weakness?

If some basic math knowledge is important for a complete education in occupational therapy, why would a school leave math out of the curriculum, especially if female students account for a large percentage of the students seeking occupational therapy degrees?

[Book_grrl]

No Chris, I don't believe that I created a "barrier" of any kind. I love art and I'm happy that I studied it, it has made me a more interesting and well-rounded person. I may decide to explore many different callings in my lifetime, it's a shame to think one has to "be" a professional anything. I may study OT and then pursue a different field altogether in my (gasp!) 50s or 60s.
Oh, and I did fine in basic math, math for science majors is a whole different story.

[Mensonge]

"huw" raises a great point when writing "Many lower income students even with a career plan find themselves in this position and sometimes fleece u is the best option. [ . . . ] For many students 20 grand in debt is actually a good deal. the article seemed like a very middle class perspective on a big problem."

Bingo.

If education in the US is to engage with some aspects of Paolo Friere's suggestion of the inextricable intertwining of literacy and revolution, which should appeal to most of your readers, Barbara Ehrenreich, then why leave us with an apparent condemnation of universities themselves vis a vis tuition and debt?

Rather than leave us with aimless disgust about this potentially unethical transaction of literacy for $$$, why not point us in the direction of the incredibly lamentable lack of government funds to support higher education? Instead, we get the sense that we are rubes to permit ourselves to be fleeced by universities.

It is tragic that a university education, which could be an incredible step toward progressive change, is being priced out of the reach of most prospective students because state and federal funds are disappearing.

WHY????

Is it because fat cat, cigar chomping executives are seeking Bill Gatesian wealth? Please tell us, Barbara Ehrenreich! What you have given us is a chintzy, poorly thought-out, easy, cynical fluff piece.

As "huw" points out, there are people willing to assume this level of debt for very sound reasons. Are people who seek to change their personal lives and, one would hope, the current political and cultural processes that underfund public eduation . . . well, are all of us who have done this schmucks?

I am bitterly disappointed to read this piece from an otherwise engaging and progressive writer. I hope that it was the result of one too many lattes, and that a thoughtful and sincere analysis of the ways that the apparent "fleece u" system is an effect of the unequal distribution of capital that is sustained by kindhearted politicos who only have our best wishes in mind when cutting taxes . . . and who also deepen the divides between folks who have any meaningful agency in the US.

I am disappointed but, I guess, not surprised by this misguided article.

[Mensonge]

Got in a hurry with the last few paragraphs above, which should have read as follows:

As "huw" points out, there are people willing to assume this level of debt for very sound reasons. Are those of us who seek to change our personal lives and, one would hope, the current political and cultural processes that underfund public education simply schmucks?

I am bitterly disappointed to read this piece from an otherwise engaging and progressive writer. I hope that it was the result of one too many lattes, and that a thoughtful and sincere analysis of the ways that the apparent "fleece u" system is an effect of the unequal distribution of capital that is sustained by kindhearted politicos who only have our best wishes in mind when cutting taxes--but who also deepen the divides between folks who have any meaningful agency in the US and thoise who don't--is in the offing.

I am disappointed but, I guess, not surprised by this misguided article.

[William]

America is all about money and making money. What kind of society do we live in? Now our colleges are just businesses with the students as "customers." All professors get rated by students. Hard professors are rated "terrible" or "too difficult" and then they will never get tenure. This country is a joke, and is going down every day. I am almost looking forward to the impending economic depression. Alas, Americans will have to learn the hard way what really matters in life. The wild thing is that there aren't even jobs for all of these kids in debt. They go to College and dream about success, yet for the vast majority success will be elusive. This country has been outsourced, temped, and downsized into what we have today. There just aren't enough jobs for everyone...Period. Soon everyone will have to compete with the illegals for the few service jobs that remain. Now with the housing bubble burst, there won't be anywhere to turn for that extra cash. once people really understand, the economy will tank. People will stop spending...The future is not and will never be as bright as it was since WWII. We had our time in the sun, and now we are stupid and fat, and the torch has been passed to somewhere else. Soon we will learn how to suffer, and it will probably spiritually at least be a good thing for all of us. The small elite rich will live in their gated communities and the rest of us will settle for a lower middle class, crime infested lives. We will eat and mcdonalds, play video games, watch ultra violence fighting, as well as movies. It really is a "Brave New World." I am so glad I was young during the 90's. Sorry for the youngsters...Also, I think Barbara has her heart in the right place, but let's face the facts, 90% of Americans are obese morons who don't have the intellectual capacity to rise up. Compare your average grandfather today with their grandchild. It is "nihilism" at its best. The fight is over! "Children of Men" will be kind of like how it is. Think deterioration both mentally and physically. Think Brazil or South America. We only have ourselves to blame. The last two elections were the last chances for change.
William

[chris]

Book Grrl, you wrote:

"To get into the chem. class I would need college algebra ( which I tried and couldn't do)."

and...

"Oh, and I did fine in basic math, math for science majors is a whole different story."

College algebra is basic math, despite what you think.

[chris]

William, you wrote:

"This country is a joke, and is going down every day...I am almost looking forward to the impending economic depression. Alas, Americans will have to learn the hard way what really matters in life...The future is not and will never be as bright as it was since WWII...Soon we will learn how to suffer, and it will probably spiritually at least be a good thing for all of us...We only have ourselves to blame."

William, is there a reason for you to go on living?

[chris]

Patia, you wrote:

"It is so true the way student loan debt shackles us to a future of middle-class servitude."

If you believe this is true, why did you borrow money to study journalism and creative writing?

You wrote:

"One thing, though: Public universities should not be blamed for fleecing students. It's the lack of state and federal support that has caused many to increasingly resemble private universities in their funding sources."

Really. Tax-payers provide a lot of money to public universities. Most comes from the state governments, some comes from federal allocations. Students are expected to pay tuition as well. Yes, college can be expensive. Or not. It all depends on the resourcefulness of the student.

You wrote:

"By the way, if anyone's hiring, I have a BA in journalism and a brand-new MFA in creative writing. The university I've worked for for the past 10 years can't afford to keep me and my student-loan debt."

Newspapers are cutting back every day. Journalism opportunities are disappearing because it is not possible for news venues to generate enough revenue to pay large numbers of journalists.

The Internet has taken a huge bite out of the revenue sources of every newspaper: The Classified Ads.

The Internet Ad business is growing. Its growth occurs at the expense of newspapers and other traditional journalistic sources.

Thus, it gets harder and harder to find jobs in print journalism. It's hard to say if the same is true for TV and radio journalism, but the numbers of journalists working in those mediums are small anyway.

It's fascinating that you chose to follow your journalism studies with an MFA in creative writing.

Creative writing is unquestionably a field were almost no one earns a living. Thus, you went from bad to worse.

On the other hand, the creative writing arena is a meritocracy of sorts.

The buyers of fiction do not care about anything but the output. If you are good, you are good. However, opinions on what is good are questionable.

John Grisham has an audience. That means he's good, even though he is no artist.

Stephen King is good because he has an audience.

However, if you seek recognition as an artist, that moment of critical acclaim will probably occur after you have departed for the Writers' Graveyard. Sorry.

For virtually everybody who studies creative writing, their activities almost always boil down to the practice of a hobby. That's a great thing, but when the hobby is creative writing, it almost never puts money in one's pocket. Sad but true.

If you want to practice journalism, learn something about business. There are real stories to write in the world of business.

[CanadaKat]

Chris-you wrote:
"Cooper Union owns the land beneath the Chrysler Building. The school receives enough rent from the land and income from its endowment to allow students to attend FREE."

Actually, only the tuition is free. Cooper accepts roughly 900 students per year.

There are mandatory annual fees of about $1400. Room & board runs you over 13K per year. I would be curious to know the demographics of the students accepted.

I do like the idea that admission is merit based - on academic marks, portfolios (for some programs) etc.

[paperpusher666]

CanadaKat: to make the state/federal funded option politically palatable, the number of people who get degrees from universities would have to drop by 90%. I do believe that there should be more trade schools, preferably vocational/technical high schools rather than the tuition-charging schools that can leave a graduate heavily in debt.

I like the system in place in Great Britain, where one has to take examinations to qualify for graduation and later placement in college, as well as certification in various subjects. Having a number of A levels counted for a lot. There was a big outcry in 2000 or so when the universities planned to begin to institute tuition. Even with the free tuition, students regularly graduated £10,000 or more in debt. Some programs that are four years in the U.S. are only three years long there.

[paperpusher666]

CanadaKat: to make the state/federal funded option politically palatable, the number of people who get degrees from universities would have to drop by 90%. I do believe that there should be more trade schools, preferably vocational/technical high schools rather than the tuition-charging schools that can leave a graduate heavily in debt.

I like the system in place in Great Britain, where one has to take examinations to qualify for graduation and later placement in college, as well as certification in various subjects. Having a number of A levels counted for a lot. There was a big outcry in 2000 or so when the universities planned to begin to institute tuition. Even with the free tuition, students regularly graduated £10,000 or more in debt. Some programs that are four years in the U.S. are only three years long there.

[paperpusher666]

CanadaKat: to make the state/federal funded option politically palatable, the number of people who get degrees from universities would have to drop by 90%. I do believe that there should be more trade schools, preferably vocational/technical high schools rather than the tuition-charging schools that can leave a graduate heavily in debt.

I like the system in place in Great Britain, where one has to take examinations to qualify for graduation and later placement in college, as well as certification in various subjects. Having a number of A levels counted for a lot. There was a big outcry in 2000 or so when the universities planned to begin to institute tuition. Even with the free tuition, students regularly graduated £10,000 or more in debt. Some programs that are four years in the U.S. are only three years long there.

[CanadaKat]

paperpusher666:
yeah, I know all about Britain's system - Canada modelled hers on it until recently. Our 'Grade 13' was pretty much equivalent to the British A levels.

Like you, I value the trade/vocational type of post-secondary education and training.

Don't think we are doing near enough in the high-school years to encourage youth to really look at the job market they may be facing when finished with their 'higher' education, enabling them to make informed decisions.

Nor are we doing near enough to ensure that they understand the difference between the need to be properly prepared for gainful, productive, employment vs 'going to university'. The two are not necessarily the same thing and educating yourself can be done, throughout the lifespan, with some motivation and good library books, at home - at virtually no cost except for your time.

[Justin K.]

right on Brabara E. you hit the nail right on the head. Don't let any one tell you other wise.

book Grrl I know how you feel. I major in photography and minor in fine art. I find my self burdened with topics like math and other such classes that has nothing to do with the types of jobs I want. My dyslexia makes this a dark and scary issue that casts a dark shadow of fear over me.

[chris]

CanadaKat, you wrote:

"There are mandatory annual fees of about $1400. Room & board runs you over 13K per year."

Tuition is ZERO and room & board is an open question. Student housing can accomodate around 200 students out of the 950 enrolled.

Many students are from NYC. Therefore, it is not unusual for them to live at home. Some will share apartments with fellow students.

You asked:

"I would be curious to know the demographics of the students accepted."

Top-notch. Top grades, top SAT scores. I went to engineering school. One of my professors was a Cooper Union grad. Very tough prof.

In recent years, the student body has shown the same changes seen at the top public high schools -- asians rising to the top.

[CanadaKat]

Chris:

Cooper's website states that room and board is approximately 13k per year - way above most other school. It may be that the cost is not a problem for the 21% or so of the students it can accomodate.

When I stated that I was curious about the demographics, I should have been clearer - I was wondering how many students might have to do the room and board thing (or purchase accomodation elsewhere).

I was being curious, not critical.

I am actually all for academically rigorous institutions, and rigorous selection criteria.

And free tuition.

I really

[Bugs Bunny]

"I wonder: would adopting what some other countries have done make any sense - specifically a system where the most costly of higher education is free but students have to meet set high school GPA's to qualify?"

No doubt such a system in America would be open to cries of racism. I grew up in NYC and went to a "special" high school for math and science geeks. I happen to be Asian. It was an interesting day my freshman year when protestors lined up on front of my school claiming that there were "too many" Asians at my school and not enough "real minorities." I could only imagine what would happen if colleges gave free rides to high gpas, but charges exorbitant amounts for others.

[chris]

Bugs Bunny, you wrote:

"No doubt such a system in America would be open to cries of racism."

Who cares? The claims are phony.

You wrote:

"I grew up in NYC and went to a "special" high school for math and science geeks."

In other words, Stuyvesant. Maybe Bronx Science.

You wrote:

"I happen to be Asian. It was an interesting day my freshman year when protestors lined up on front of my school claiming that there were "too many" Asians at my school and not enough "real minorities."

Obviously the protesters were black and obviously they cannot perform simple math. Such as calculating the percentage of Asians in the NYC population and the national population. As we know, there are fewer Asians in NY City and the US than either blacks or hispanics.

The whiners are also foolish enough to believe that Stuyvesant has the power to take empty-headed nitwits and shape them into over-achieving brainiacs. The protesters behave as though admission to Stuyvesant occurs through the efforts of a secret cabal and those admitted are part of a conspiracy to exclude blacks and hispanics.

Who cares what these dopes believe?

My brother-in-law graduated from Stuyvesant in the early 1970s. At that time the student body was roughly 50% Jewish, 40% other whites, and 10% everybody else. Asians were a much smaller percentage of the city population then.

Today, the student body is 50% Asian, a little more than 40% white, and a little less than 10% everybody else. These numbers are published by the NY City Department of Education. School by school.

It is also worth pointing out that the per-pupil expenditures at Stuyvesant is about $9,000 a year. But the AVERAGE per-pupil expenditure in the NYC school system is about $13,000, and the per-pupil expenditure in the schools that are populated exclusively by black and hispanic students is even higher. Thus, good students are far less expensive to educate than the goofballs.

In other words, some people are more interested in learning than others.

You wrote:

"I could only imagine what would happen if colleges gave free rides to high gpas, but charges exorbitant amounts for others."

But that already happens. Cooper Union is the extreme example. All students enjoy FREE tuition. If you are not good enough to meet the entrance requirements, no amount will open the doors.

[roger]

while there is plenty to be said for the failings within black culture, there are also the facts surrounding the failure of govt schools to educate blacks. the black community must bring to the table adolescents who are prepared to learn and willing to abandon ghetto behaviour. additionally the schools must be willing to discipline inappropriate behaviour and demand accountability from black students.

i dont believe it is as simple an equation as a bunch of knuckleheads protesting outside of a school. there is little evidence that govt education which is geared to general consumption by the public is nearly flexible enough to respond to these needs. the learning environment deteriorates for blacks at the university level. you will notice that asians are never referred to as a racial minority in the midst of affirmitive action debates.

[Anarcissie]

CanadaKat: '... I wonder: would adopting what some other countries have done make any sense - specifically a system where the most costly of higher education is free but students have to meet set high school GPA's to qualify? ...'

You would have a different kind of class filter. The present class filter in the U.S. tests mostly for wealth and personal connections. However, there are examples of class filters where the primary quality sought (and produced) is devotion to ideas promoted or even hallowed by the State bureaucracy, for example Mandarin China.

[roger]

mainland china

[chris]

Anarcissie, you wrote:

"The present class filter in the U.S. tests mostly for wealth and personal connections."

Oh sure. Every kid taking his SATs is encouraged to bring a copy of the names in his Rolo-dex to submit for grading rather than extensive knowledge and understanding of English and math.

The same gambit will work for those who would rather skip the achievement tests too.

[Book_Grrl]

Jeez Chris, you must be a whole lot of fun to hang around with!

[karen]

What really galls me is seeing big corporations like Dell and IBM importing indian engineers by the bucketfull. They spend 200 bucks going to school for six or nine months at a computer training institute, call it a masters degree, and arrive here with ZERO debt alongside the absolutely brightest and best of our generation who can barely hope to get a similar job because they are thought of as more expensive and even at the same pay most with a real masters with have fifty or sixty thousand dollars in debt.

[Matt]

Couple points:

1. The loan money borrowed is often grossed up with a useless "guarantee fee" (guarantee what? The guarantee is a complete fraud - the bank holds these "guarantee funds" in its own account).

2. The loan is NEVER dischargable in the USA - (however in Canada school loans are dischargeable 10 years after school).

3. The pay-back of the loan not only included INTEREST but also is with AFTER TAX dollars! So to pay back $100,000 in debt a student will have to earn that amount plus 10% more for interest and 30% more for taxes!

3. Blue-collar jobs pay only slightly less than the "reported" amount of college graduate jobs. If a person simply works for 4 to 8 years (instead of wasting time and borrowing money to go to college) they actually end up ahead.

4. The "reported" income levels are skewed: College grads that end up underemployed are often too ashamed to answer salary surveys, while those hired to "dream jobs" (a small minority) are bragging about it at every chance they get.

5. Women have flooded the colleges all eager to do what? They end up depressing wages for the men who graduate, yet these same women find themselves "unfulfilled" having chosen to skip motherhood.

How much simpler it would be if men simply worked "male" blue-collar jobs (self-employed skilled worker) with the aim of saving up to own his own business; while women simply got married and had kids!

That's what the immigrants to the US are doing very successfully - while us college grads end up working as their temps, sales reps, and barristas.

Pitiful scam - DON'T BORROW MONEY FOR SCHOOL!!!

From,

JD, MBA, $130,000 debt.

[Matt]

Couple points:

1. The loan money borrowed is often grossed up with a useless "guarantee fee" (guarantee what? The guarantee is a complete fraud - the bank holds these "guarantee funds" in its own account).

2. The loan is NEVER dischargable in the USA - (however in Canada school loans are dischargeable 10 years after school).

3. The pay-back of the loan not only included INTEREST but also is with AFTER TAX dollars! So to pay back $100,000 in debt a student will have to earn that amount plus 10% more for interest and 30% more for taxes!

4. Blue-collar jobs pay only slightly less than the "reported" amount of college graduate jobs. If a person simply works for 4 to 8 years (instead of wasting time and borrowing money to go to college) they actually end up ahead.

5. The "reported" income levels are skewed: College grads that end up underemployed are often too ashamed to answer salary surveys, while those hired to "dream jobs" (a small minority) are bragging about it at every chance they get.

6. Women have flooded the colleges all eager to do what? They end up depressing wages for the men who graduate, yet these same women find themselves "unfulfilled" having chosen to skip motherhood.

7. How much simpler it would be if men simply worked "male" blue-collar jobs (self-employed skilled worker) with the aim of saving up to own his own business; while women simply got married and had kids!

8. That's what the immigrants to the US are doing very successfully - while us college grads end up working as their temps, sales reps, and barristas.

Pitiful scam - DON'T BORROW MONEY FOR SCHOOL!!!

From,

JD, MBA, $130,000 debt!!

[Richard]

Let me tell you a dirty little secret. It doesn't matter where you go to college. It only matters whom you know. Connections. With so many people in college, what is there to differentiate between people anymore. You don't even have to be a genius. I can train any above average intelligent guy to trade like I do. Yet, I only train those young men from families I know. Find some rich influential friends and make connections. It is hard to get into the circle if you weren't born into it.

It is great being rich! I like sitting back and observing and philosophizing. Working for someone else is for chumps. Capitalism is like human nature: Survival of the Fittest! The smartest ones get ahead, and the less innovative and less intelligent ones suffer in mediocre jobs. It has always been that way and will always be so. Don't be angry! Go create your own wealth or accept you Beta place in life. Life is a game. Human nature, whether you want to admit it or not, is all about being selfish and getting ahead of your fellow man. Most people are below average I.Q., which makes the game quite simple.

Secret #2: You will never get wealthy working for someone else. They just want to pay you the minimum in order to make as much profit as possible. This is Capitalism. Quit idealizing a world that will never be, and sharpen you teeth. Human nature is all about aggression and taking what you want. Study history! Just like in the wild, some will become wildly successful, like myself, and most (like you) will end up in the middle or on the bottom. Life is not fair. This isn't Kindergarten, and if someone wants my money they better bring weapons. As Reagan once said, "pull yourselves up by your bootstraps!" Or to quote a fantastic short story, "The Most Dangerous Game." There are two kinds of people in the world: the hunters and the huntees. Study Evolutionary Psychology and get a true education. We all have this drive in us. Accept human nature and go with it!

[CanadaKat]

Matt - you wrote:
"2. The loan is NEVER dischargable in the USA - (however in Canada school loans are dischargeable 10 years after school)."

Not quite true about Canada - the only way to discharge the loan is to declare bankruptcy, and you must wait ten years after leaving school to do so. Also, not all loans allow you to do it.

"7. How much simpler it would be if men simply worked "male" blue-collar jobs (self-employed skilled worker) with the aim of saving up to own his own business; while women simply got married and had kids!"

Or vice versa - let the guy stay home with the kids while mommy works.

[PatriotMilitiadotcom]

Jews using the Jew owned Federal Reserve are causing the onset of Depression II and soon World War III to cover that.
Jews control your every move and have you programmed to play to their hand.
www.Jew-Crime.com
for those who still have their own brains to use.

[Anarcissie]

chris: '... Oh sure. Every kid taking his SATs is encouraged to bring a copy of the names in his Rolo-dex to submit for grading rather than extensive knowledge and understanding of English and math. ...'

If the only thing that mattered were SAT scores -- if these took care of both admission and tuition -- then I would say you would have a fully Mandarinized system, where the only thing that mattered was storage and use of authorized knowledge and problem-solving skills. I gather from my reading and conversations that a lot of other things, like wealth, still matter. In fact, they seem to matter more than they used to. You may be old enough to remember when CCNY was free.

[chris]

Baed on the previous message, the Jew-haters have arrived at this site.

That alone isn't a huge surprise. But the timing is noteworthy.

The message from these sick clowns is dated 9/11.

It should not surprise anyone to learn that much of the verbiage on the Patriot Militia website claims Jews were responsible for 9/11 -- and virtually every other world catastrophe since man arrived on Earth.

I spent last night's evening hours at Ground Zero debating the growing numbers of 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists. Every year more and more of them appear at Ground Zero on this day of local and national mourning.

They would feel kinship with the vile screwballs of the Patriot Militia.

Anyway, I hope no one believes the Federal Reserve is anything but a government agency. The Fed cannot be acquired by anyone or any organization. Nevertheless, the retards of the militia world endlessly repeat this preposterous claim.

Like the 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists, they find converts every day, which is a sad but true fact.

[Tysyacha]

Richard,

Okay, so maybe there are the predators and the prey in American (and world) society, but for me these two poles lie along a broad continuum. I'm not always the "top dog" from day to day. On some days I feel like the windshield, conquering and moving forward in fulfilling my company's vision. Some days, however, I feel like the squashed bug, not understanding why a funding source has chosen to give some other company besides ours a grant or such like. I'm never "always predator" or "always prey". I'm in- between most of the time.

PatriotMilitia,

I fail to see how following a certain religion or being of a certain ethnicity means you automatically control the world. Also, I am one of those pesky "old school" girls who likes to see scientific proof of claims such as these before I accept them. Propaganda doesn't count with me. Sorry!

To Everyone:

What do you think college admissions officers want to hear/see/read when it comes to the "admissions essay"?

[CanadaKat]

Chris-you wrote:
"I spent last night's evening hours at Ground Zero debating the growing numbers of 9/11 Conspiracy Theorists. Every year more and more of them appear at Ground Zero on this day of local and national mourning.

They would feel kinship with the vile screwballs of the Patriot Militia."

Big difference between outright bigotry and an opposing opinion - which is really all the 'conspiracy theorists' are presenting.
The conspiracy believers are not spreading the kind of hatred that the message from patriotmilitiadotcom spews.

It doesn't help silence the bigotry of the 'blame the jews for everything' crowd that the US now refers to itself as the "homeland" - conjures up images of Hitler's Third Reich all to easily.

[paperpusher666]

Chris, in deperate times, people get desperate. It's a lot easier to blame others for problems than to accept responsibility or even chalk it up to bad luck. I'd be surprised if you haven't met such people.

[chris]

Anarcissie, you wrote:

"If the only thing that mattered were SAT scores -- if these took care of both admission and tuition -- then I would say you would have a fully Mandarinized system, where the only thing that mattered was storage and use of authorized knowledge and problem-solving skills."

First, there is a college for everyone who wants to attend. Low SATs and low grades are no barrier to entry to the halls of higher learning.

Second, elite colleges expect to see more and more extra-curricular activities in the lives of applicants. Thus, kids who have started successful small businesses score points with admissions officers at schools like the Wharton Undergraduate school at the U of Pennsylvania, where the son of a good friend of mine is now enrolled. He started a small business importing car parts.

Published writing earns big points for kids. As does substantive art work. As does demonstrated skill and drive in pursuit of a personal goal.

You wrote:

"I gather from my reading and conversations that a lot of other things, like wealth, still matter. In fact, they seem to matter more than they used to."

Wealth matters less than it used to. John Kerry and George Bush represent the tail end of the long era defined by wealth and priviledge as the key for acceptance to Ivy League colleges.

Today, the children of asian immigrants are kicking ass in high school and snagging the majority of awards for academic excellence. Like Jews of an earlier era, they have risen to the top of the educational meritocracy through hard work. And their hark work is gaining them acceptances at the nation's best universities. Money has had nothing to do with their climb in the US.

You wrote:

"You may be old enough to remember when CCNY was free."

Perhaps it is news to you that tax-payer supported education sometimes becomes too expensive for tax-payers alone.

In the glory-days of the free CCNY, the student body was largely Jewish as sons and daughters of Jewish immigrants made their climb from the Lower East Side, Williamsburg and other neighborhoods into better parts of town.

Like today's Asians, Jews took most of the academic honors -- and more and more went to the nations best colleges.

Then blacks demanded access to CCNY, alternatively known as the Harvard of the Proletariat.

Guess what? CCNY adopted the Open Admissions policy. In other words, accept any idiot who applies and let the college deal with the problems of substandard students.

The result? The need for remedial services at CCNY multiplied over and over at great expense to tax-payers. Meanwhile, NYC was facing budgetary issues for a number of other reasons.

Hence, the only smart move was to actually charge the customers for the services they were receiving. I think it's reasonable to expect students to pay for a portion of the cost of college. After all, the professors are not working for free. Neither are the janitors or any other employees. Their pay increased. They want compensation.

Anyway, you seem to submit yourself to conspiracy thinking when it comes to virtually everything.

[chris]

CanadaKat, you wrote:

"Big difference between outright bigotry and an opposing opinion - which is really all the 'conspiracy theorists' are presenting."

You are WRONG. The 9/11 conspiracy theorists are ACTIVELY and INTENTIONALLY spreading the vile belief that a conspiracy to perpetrate 9/11 existed and exists at the highest levels of the US government. These vile screwballs are accusing the leaders of this country of TREASON of the highest order.

They are NOT suggesting alternative opinions. If you believe they are only hoping to engage in enlightening debate, you are either easily fooled or also sympathetic to the idea of the destruction of the US government.

You wrote:

"The conspiracy believers are not spreading the kind of hatred that the message from patriotmilitiadotcom spews."

Once again, you are WRONG. Though they may not accuse Jews directly for 9/11, they nevertheless point the finger of blame and culpability at a group of US government leaders.

The nature of the blame and scapegoating for 9/11 follows the well worn path trod by anti-Semites, Holocaust Deniers, islamic lunatics and other purveyors of prejudice.

Feel free to believe whatever you want, but so far, your words have shown you are out of touch with reality on this topic.

[Justin K.]

Chris

Just under 3000 people died. Because of this Americans became scared. So scared that they allowed there constitutional freedoms to become violated. The U.S. president allowed illegal wire taps. He started an unjustified war by lying about Iraq having "weapons of mass destruction." And lets not forget how Bushes Patriot Act sent innocent human beings to guantanamo bay. With out even so much as a trial. I don't believe that the government is responsible for 9/11. But you have to admit, The attack was to the benefit of the U.S. government. After all, what better way to run a country then with fear.

[leewhee]

The reason why "higher" education has become so expensive is precisely because it is financed and has been folded into the "buy now, pay later" mentality we have come to treasure in this country.

If students (or their parents) had to pay cash on the barrel for college, there is no way these institutions could get away with charging what they do. People simply wouldn't have the money to pay for it.

But by letting the financial players into the market, and allowing the fiscal pain to be delayed for many years and spread out over time, the education institutions have been given a free ride to increase fees, raise salaries and generally boost the price year after year.

Many see the ability to finance education as a way to enable more students---regardless of income---to get a college education.

And this has largely been true. But "buy now, pay later" has a dark side. And that dark side is inflation.

We have seen the same thing with housing. When buyers were able to "purchase" a home with no money down, easy upfront terms, little or no credit standards, the end-result was that home prices skyrocketed.

This is what has happened to education. When you expand the market due to "financial innovation", you get inflation. Universities know that they can continue raising fees with impunity since students (or parents) can simply say "charge it" and the consequences won't be felt for many years.

I don't blame college administrators. Everyone understands how this gravy train works---so everything from professor salaries to maintenance joins in the cost-spiral fun.

The original notion of financial education was considered an egalitarian "public good", i.e., more access for everyone.

But the road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. And now that the financial players have sunk their teeth deep into the education system, it's going to be very difficult to unwind it.

[kevin]

Despite our limited intelligence and inferior educational system Americans somehow seem to find genuinely accredited schools anyway. Please note too that tuition IS free at some state universities.
They serve free coffee and donuts at the car dealerships sometimes. If you want espresso and croissants you might have to pay for it.

kevin

[chris]

Justin K, you wrote:

"Just under 3000 people died."

Yes. On 9/11. And ONE THOUSAND AMERICANS were murdered by islamic terrorists between 1968 and September 10, 2001.

You wrote:

"Because of this Americans became scared."

Hardly. Everyone I know got pissed off. I saw some fear in NY City on 9/11. But I saw more bravery that I can recount. And more in the months and years since.

If you were scared, then feel free to speak for yourself. But don't attribute and transfer your feelings and emotions to others.

You wrote:

"So scared that they allowed there constitutional freedoms to become violated."

You can't name a single US citizen who has experienced a violation of his Constitutional Freedoms. Yet you push this phony argument.

You wrote:

"The U.S. president allowed illegal wire taps."

Wire tapping is a permissible act. Your opposition to catching people who have declared their intentions of destroying the US suggests you are sympathetic to their cause.

You wrote:

"He started an unjustified war..."

Unjustified? Says you.

You wrote:

"...by lying about Iraq having "weapons of mass destruction.""

Lying? Hardly. Since the US had been involved with arms sales to Iraq in the 1980s, we knew without a doubt that Iraq had possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction. You might argue that we turned the tables on Iraq after we assisted the country in its acquisition of WMDs. But so what? That's how the game of international politics is played.

You wrote:

"And lets not forget how Bushes Patriot Act sent innocent human beings to guantanamo bay."

My my. You have asserted that "innocent human beings" are incarcerated at Guantanamo. Tell me how you know innocent people are imprisoned there.

You wrote:

"With out even so much as a trial."

Trials and all other legalities relating to civil law in the US have no connection to military rules involving combatants. You are blabbering about nothing.

You wrote:

"I don't believe that the government is responsible for 9/11."

After all you've written, the preceding statement from you is difficult to accept.

You wrote:

"But you have to admit, The attack was to the benefit of the U.S. government."

I admit or agree with nothing of this nature. Your statement is an accusation that our government leaders are motivated by treasonous thoughts.

You wrote:

"After all, what better way to run a country then with fear."

Your preceding statement is an expression of towering idiocy -- unless you believe the best way to run a country is by dictatorship. Like North Korea, Cuba, Syria or Zimbabwe.

[Larry In Lethbridge]

Book Grrl wonders as most of us do :
"Jeez Chris, you must be a whole lot of fun to hang around with!"

This was a positive discussion happening until the racist bigot small weenied Chris pipes up with his vitriol. Engineering grad Uh ? We can add dork to his resume.
Can someone nuke this annnoying weasel before I put a hit out on him ?

[Andrea]

It is true that there is a college out there for everyone. Some colleges, however, are more equal than others.

No one is asked to bring a rolodex to the SATs with the names of contacts, nor is anyone asked to give a familiy lineage. The thing is, SAT questions and answers are skewed to a certain mindset. ETS, the company that makes the SAT, spends a lot of research time and resources to make sure that only 3% of students can answer certain questions. They exploit certain commonly held beliefs to make sure that students will lean toward certain incorrect answers, but that a certain few who have the right sort of training will choose the correct answers. I will have to do a little looking through my materials to find specific examples, but right now those materials are at my workplace and I am not. It might make for an interesting piece.

If choosing the correct answers were indeed an indicator of good performance in college, it wouldn't be such a problem in my eyes. The thing is, the SAT is no sort of indicator of performance. For a test to be valid, it has to have a significant statistical correlation to other assessments of skills. We hear all the time of students who have poor grades but good SAT scores, and vice versa. The only correlation that assessment research has found is a nearly one-to-one correlation between high SAT scores and high family income. This means that the SAT is invalid.

This means that using SAT scores as any kind of factor in college acceptance is tantamount to cultural bias. One might say that colleges try to combat this by searching out "diversity" in the first year class, but in general, the diversity has an underlying sameness that keeps everyone's assumptions intact.

In a near non-sequitur, we may need to come back to the original point: university education is an expensive investment that doesn't always give a return. Every investment carries risks, but when a chance of bad return becomes almost a certainty a question of ethics arises. The cost of an education is rising faster than average incomes are rising to meet it. That our government is willing to spend more money to keep the military industrial complex thriving than it is willing to spend to educate its citizens says something telling about the government we perpetuate.

I say all that I do based on facts, on things that I have researched and learned. Utopia is not an option, but it is not wrong either to examine our society's structures and ask ourselves, could this be better?

What we believe and what we do about education could be better. Finding ways to make the costs less burdensome would be a good start.

[Adnihilo]

Thank you Barbara. Fact - My $11,000 loan for an MBA has grown by 772% [$85,000] due to Fed extortionist interest 'n fees in just 15 years.... I will leave this country rather than bow down this extortion forced on to me by US Fed-corporatist criminal fascists...

[Justin K.]

Chris says: "If you were scared, then feel free to speak for yourself. But don't attribute and transfer your feelings and emotions to others."

On 9/11 I did not even know what happened tell the next day around 6:pm when I got home. I was camping in death valley. (No radio, no tv, I did not even have a cell phone back then.) And When I did find out I did not think it was real. But there was a news report of how people started to fear people from the middle east. And only because of the 9/11 attacks. Sorry but I forgot what network that news report was on.

Chris says: "You can't name a single US citizen who has experienced a violation of his Constitutional Freedoms. Yet you push this phony argument."

I can name one. And Just one. I'm not going to because it would be a violation of his/her privacy. But I don't have to name any one because it's a well known fact that violations of Constitutional Freedoms occur all the time.

Chris says: "Wire tapping is a permissible act."

The A.C.L.U. wright's:
NSA Spying on Americans Is Illegal (12/29/2005)
What if it emerged that the President of the United States was flagrantly violating the Constitution and a law passed by the Congress to protect Americans against abuses by a super-secret spy agency? What if, instead of apologizing, he said, in essence, "I have the power to do that, because I say I can." That frightening scenario is exactly what we are now witnessing in the case of the warrantless NSA spying ordered by President Bush that was reported December 16, 2005 by the New York Times.
read more at: http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/23279res20051229.html

Chris says: "Lying? Hardly. Since the US had been involved with arms sales to Iraq in the 1980s, we knew without a doubt that Iraq had possessed Weapons of Mass Destruction."

So where are the "Weapons of Mass Destruction." We have found weapons, but none of Mass Destruction.
And my last statement (After all, what better way to run a country then with fear.) Was one of sarcasm.

I would love to get in to this more but we went off topic and this blog is not about 9/11. lets get back on topic.

[chris]

Andrea, you wrote:

"This means that using SAT scores as any kind of factor in college acceptance is tantamount to cultural bias."

Then you should apply to Harvard. Harvard does not look at SAT scores in its admission process. You must bring many other factors into the fore to receive admittance -- and money won't do it.

[AlejandroFrausto]

People, stop complaining.
Is someone forcing you to go to expensive colleges? Are they holding a gun to your head?

I went to city college for like a year and a half. Never even got my AA.

Now, I have a great paying job, anyway. If you are sharp, you can get a good job, regardless. Oh, I have ZERO debt too.

Maybe if you all stop being SHEEP and stop supporting these schools, and start SELF-EDUCATING yourselves, you would not be in this boat.

[chris]

Adnihilo, you wrote:

"My $11,000 loan for an MBA has grown by 772% [$85,000] due to Fed extortionist interest 'n fees in just 15 years...."

In other words, you defaulted on the loan you promised to repay.

Defaulting on a loan is no big crime in my eyes. But your dishonesty about your own actions makes your cries of victimization laughable.

You wrote:

"I will leave this country rather than bow down this extortion forced on to me by US Fed-corporatist criminal fascists..."

You don't have to repay the loan. There is no debtor's prison in the US. You will not receive midnight visits from the financial police. But debt collectors will probably chase you and they will attempt to contact your employer, if you have one.

Meanwhile, there is an evident irony in a situation in which a person who borrowed money to earn an MBA can't or won't repay the loan that made it possible to obtain the degree.

I'd say you learned nothing from your business program.

Meanwhile, is there free money available in the countries to which you might move?

[Matt]

Richard:

Discharge means in BK. It's exactly like I said.

As for "vice versa" you've obviously been brainwashed. Typical malady affecting men who spend too long under the spell of the educational system. Woman have babies, men don't. Leave make-believe to the kiddies, Richard, high time you grew up.

"There are no differences" between women, men, blacks, whites, orientals, occidentals, criminals, victims, citizens, immigrants, adults, children, Jews, Christians, Moslems, Hindus, straights, sodomites....

NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN RIGHT AND WRONG ... AND ULTIMATELY: LUCIFER IS GOD.

That's what it's all about. That is the satanic lie of educational diversity driven PC nanny-state.

Reader, don't be one of the antichrist's smug little punks, like Richard, Fight against the NWO.

[paperpusher666]

Matt, why not "God does not exist" rather than "Lucifer is God"?

As for the skilled tradesmen, consider that the salary of machinists has been flat for about 20 years. Vo-tech schools produce "nail technicians", not skilled trademen.

[M]

My husband was there on 9/11 and based on what he saw, we also think it was an inside job. Calling people antisemites doesn't help but if you think about it, certain people would love it to be blamed on the 'Jews' because then they would be kicked out of the West and forced to move to Israel. Personally, I do believe Israel was involved but at the same time, think that American/Western Jews have been set up for a massive antisemitic backlash.

[chris]

M, you wrote:

"My husband was there on 9/11 and based on what he saw, we also think it was an inside job."

Oh. I don't know what you mean when you say your "husband was there on 9/11".

My office was on the 47th floor, not that that has any bearing on the simple fact the 19 islamic hijackers seized four jets, flying two into the World Trade Center, one into the Pentagon and crashing one in a field in Pennsylvania.

That aside, whether your husband was inside one of the Trade Center Towers when it was hit, or outside on the street, he would have no way of knowing who flew the jets or who perpetrated the attack.

However, you made the statement that 9/11 was an "inside job". Therefore you are stating that a murderous conspiracy was carried out by people at the highest levels of the US government.

In short, you are nuts.

You wrote:

"Calling people antisemites doesn't help but if you think about it, certain people would love it to be blamed on the 'Jews' because then they would be kicked out of the West and forced to move to Israel."

What the hell are you jabbering about? WHO are these "certain people" able to benefit from "blaming it on the Jews?"

You wrote:

"Personally, I do believe Israel was involved but at the same time, think that American/Western Jews have been set up for a massive antisemitic backlash."

Yet another sick anti-Semite has been heard from.

[CanadaKat]

Chris-you wrote:

"You are WRONG. The 9/11 conspiracy theorists are ACTIVELY and INTENTIONALLY spreading the vile belief that a conspiracy to perpetrate 9/11 existed and exists at the highest levels of the US government. These vile screwballs are accusing the leaders of this country of TREASON of the highest order."

No, you are wrong (even if you did yell it by using caps).

Questioning the actions, or speaking out against the actions of, your government is a right - in any democracy. And if I read the constitution properly, it's also a duty of citizens to remove a non-performing, corrupt (i.e. lying to the public it gets it's salary from) government.

It is not, under any circumstances, treason.

Attempts to silence this is what one would expect to find in a dictatorship.

If what the conspiracy theorists are trying to do is to call attention to themselves and their talking points, which is much of what I see them soing, and it bothers you, then I suggest that you use a time-honoured approach (well known by parents) and ignore them.
The more attention you pay them, the louder they get and the more the behaviour persists.

Personally, I kinda like the idea that anybody - anybody - is willing to take a different stance rather than swallowing whatever is dished out, passively, without ever exercising any neurons to delve a little deeper or to consider other points of view.

[CanadaKat]

Chris-you wrote:
"The nature of the blame and scapegoating for 9/11 follows the well worn path trod by anti-Semites, Holocaust Deniers, islamic lunatics and other purveyors of prejudice."

Yes, the same behaviour the US is now using. Demonizing anyone (or country) that doesn't tow the line (i.e. Chavez), destroying countries and killing innocent civilians, while actively encouraging prejudice by promoting "if your not with us, your against us". The implication is always - if you're against the approach of the US in it's war on terrorism then, by default, the you are 'for' the terrorist.

The US is quite willing to engage in scapegoating others if it serves it's purposes.

Thank you for proving your own point - especially liked the all inclusive "islamic lunatics".

Unless, of course, you wanted to come across as a purveyor of prejudice...

[chris]

CanadaKat, you wrote:

"Attempts to silence this is what one would expect to find in a dictatorship."

What attempts to silence whom? I'm simply calling liars what they are -- liars.

Apparently you don't know the difference between "questioning" and spreading a Big Lie, as those swell nazis did in the 1930s.

There official version of the causes of 9/11 are well known and obvious. The evil mastermind -- osama bin laden -- has openly taken credit for the attack and every shred of evidence points to him and his al-qaeda henchmen.

You wrote:

"If what the conspiracy theorists are trying to do is to call attention to themselves and their talking points, which is much of what I see them soing..."

You show a demonstrable lack of vision.

You wrote:

"...and it bothers you, then I suggest that you use a time-honoured approach and ignore them."

Really. Your simple-minded solution only shows how removed you are from the issue. These screwballs arrive in groups at the September 11th Memorial Service and chant their madness as families of those killed are within earshot while attending open air services, which you might have seen on TV news. These vile clowns are aiming to upset those who came to Ground Zero to grieve. I can assure you, the families are repulsed.

You wrote:

"The more attention you pay them, the louder they get and the more the behaviour persists."

Actually, I do a pretty good job of interrupting their preaching. You'd be surprised how easy it is to disrupt their efforts.

[Anarcissie]

Justin K:
"Because of [9/11] Americans became scared."

chris:
"Hardly. Everyone I know got pissed off. I saw some fear in NY City on 9/11. But I saw more bravery that I can recount. And more in the months and years since."

A New York City-based view, I think. Actually, there was a good deal of fear in the city. I was working a few blocks from the World Trade Center, and when the building reopened a few weeks later, a considerable number of people found they were unable to show up. I remember as well all the people who moved out of Battery Park City. I know a few people who, to this day, cannot travel to lower Manhattan.

However, by and large, I'd say New Yorkers stood their ground because they are inured to such events. For instance, prior to 9/11 I had already been close enough to three other terrorist attacks to hear the explosions. In New York, a bit of terrorism goes with the territory. I certainly wasn't going to leave. I would say it was the people out in the hinterlands who started shaking in their boots, along with the concomitant posturing and blustering that go along with it. And that is what I think Justin is saying. He's not talking about tough New Yorkers and their sang-froid.

[chris]

CanadaKat, you wrote:

"Yes, the same behaviour the US is now using."

Oh. Another innocent chiming in. Demonizing? Whom? The muslims? I guess you are another person having no experience with muslims, and their openly expressed, widely held hate for Western morals, pluralism and freedom.

You wrote:

"Demonizing anyone (or country) that doesn't tow the line (i.e. Chavez)..."

First, the expression is "TOE the line." The image has no relation to pulling something with a rope.

Anyway, Chavez has almost acquired full dictatorial power in Venezuela. Believe whatever you want, but he's going to destroy the oil industry by nationalizing it and the Venezuelan economy will fall apart as a result.

You wrote:

"...destroying countries and killing innocent civilians, while actively encouraging prejudice by promoting "if your not with us, your against us". The implication is always - if you're against the approach of the US in it's war on terrorism then, by default, the you are 'for' the terrorist."

We've had as much luck finding moderate muslims as we've had finding Weapons of Mass Destruction.

[Anarcissie]

AlejandroFrausto: 'People, stop complaining.
Is someone forcing you to go to expensive colleges? Are they holding a gun to your head? ...'

It's enough to think so. And it may be that it is necessary for many people, just as it is necessary for people like me and maybe you to _not_ go. People differ.

[chris]

Anarcissie, you wrote:

"I remember as well all the people who moved out of Battery Park City. I know a few people who, to this day, cannot travel to lower Manhattan."

Construction is booming downtown. Residential and commercial space is going up at full speed. There are several new residential buildings either open or under construction in Battery Park City and the downtown population has doubled from 22,000 in 2001 to 44,000 today.

[deang]

This is such a good summary of the current state of US universities these days. It's sad to see that so many commentors here see it as inevitable or unavoidable or just "the real world" or whatever. Since it wasn't always this way, it doesn't have to be this way now. This charging for every little thing is nuts. I worked in a university clerical department for over a decade, and saw the department gradually come to charge university applicants, students, faculty, and other users of services for just about every little thing. They were seriously on the verge of charging a fee for each signature the student wrote on a form: "A five dollar fee for this signature. A three dollar fee for that one. And you get this form free of signature fees, since there's no signature required, though reading the page will cost eighty dollars." That was a joke parody of what the administration was seriously considering, and it was among the things that drove me out of the department. And this was at the largest and one of the best funded universities in the US. As many have said, the US is going the way Latin America has been for a few centuries, and I'm not referring to Chavez and Castro: only the very wealthy able to afford education, and for the rest, it's poverty, prisons, and blame.

[Monica]

There are many moderate Muslims who lead quiet lives, selling Muslim clothing or working somewhere. The best grocery in my area is a Muslim store. I actually found there cabbage leaves (the way I like them, in brine, not in vinegar) from Bulgaria, although the label is in several languages including Romanian.

Osama is not any worse than your president, who had many people killed, even in their own countries. In fact, for some reason, I tend to like Osama at an emotional level, and I was happy to know that he's still alive. He is a smart man who has the courage to fight for his principles, but he did offer his enemies a way out. He invited them to embrace Islam.

In fact, that would be a good way to solve the problem of terrorism. A few years down the road, Osama and his friends may no longer be able to fight as efficiently, if it appears that the "infidels" are not really Muslim. Until then, let's all become Muslim. Problem solved.

I spent too much money on clothes even though, or because, I'm trying to cover up as much as possible without wearing a burka, which is hard to do in North America. This massive conversion to Islam may solve some of my financial problems as well. I won't have to go out of my way to cover up in reality but dress at least a little more normally to fit in and to keep my job. In fact, a burka may then be required at work! Or, I love Islam and Islamic dress!

[Marjan]

Here’s something else for coaches: CEO Coaching There are 600+
resource links on this site http://www.change-leaders.com/ceo-coaching.html for any coaching question related to being on a board (what is the best board training? What is the best board conference I should go to?...) Plus a page on board movies!

[CanadaKat]

"Anyway, Chavez has almost acquired full dictatorial power in Venezuela. Believe whatever you want, but he's going to destroy the oil industry by nationalizing it and the Venezuelan economy will fall apart as a result."

Thaaat's right...no country should be able to nationalize their own resources, especially if it means that most of the profits go to their own country first - you know, so that they no longer have to depend on the imposed economics of the World Bank or the IMF.

And, especially if it means that the mostly western owned big oil can no longer pull most of the profits from the industry out of the country.

Why is our oil under their land anyway?

[CanadaKat]

Chris-you wrote:
"What attempts to silence whom? I'm simply calling liars what they are -- liars."

and so are they - and they have as much right to do so as you do, no matter how much you get your panties in a twist over it.

[chris]

CanadaKat, you wrote:

"Thaaat's right...no country should be able to nationalize their own resources..."

It does not matter to me if Chavez seizes the Venezuelan oil industry. Although it does matter in broad terms because he will mismanage it -- as all dictators have -- and contribute to higher world oil prices.

Production will fall because he is an idiot, like all dictators ruling over oil reserves. As production falls, meaningful employment in the oil industry will drop. The oil bureaucracy will expand while actual production falls. Thus, the Venezuelan economy will see shrinking returns from its potential cash-cow.

You wrote:

"...especially if it means that most of the profits go to their own country first - you know, so that they no longer have to depend on the imposed economics of the World Bank or the IMF.""

Here you have drifted into true idiocy. These "profits" you mention will never appear. Of course Chavez will lie about that.

In any case, his social programs will cost far more than his oil exports will ever support. The Soviet Union, by the way, was and is a huge oil producer. But its oil fields are a mess and the productive lives of the oil fields have been shortened due to the fact that the Soviet Union never acquired modern oilfield technology or well-management skills.

Venezuela will go down the same road because it will spend money on social programs and ignore maintenance and repair work on its golden-goose industry. The country has already harmed its capacity to obtain oilfield expertise by having nationalized the holdings of at least two US oil companies.

Anyway, Chavez will spend a lot of money ensuring his survival as dictator. While he focuses on himself and his unaffordable social programs, Venezuela will fall into a deep recession.