« This Space for Sale | Main | Better to be a Chimpanzee »

April 30, 2007

Comments

Gil

I think colleges don't have to teach students to obey and conform very much: they learn it far too well before they get to college. At least that's been one of the most common problems with the students in my college-level classes. I want them to shake things up, think for themselves, and so on ... and they still ask me if that will be on the exam.

I think another reason that white-collar employers might prefer college grads is that it serves as a helpful filter for professions that want to pay lip service to racial and class diversity, but don't want to actually have to follow through on that promise with any real rigor. The population of college grads remains disproportionately white, and disproportionately upper middle class (and above). Requiring a BA for an job applicant to even get through the door makes it much easier to claim that the lack of diversity in your company's managerial staff is somebody else's fault.

Maya's Granny

My uncle, who died in 1961, hadn't finished grade school, having to quit and help support his family. He eventually owned two businesses and what he said, back then, about college graduates was that it told him this person could stick to something for four years. Not a bad trait, although not the only one needed in a job.

Anarcissie

I agree pretty much with Gil. College is a caste and class filter. Learning, even of simple vocational skills, is tertiary. (In second place is making connections and accomplishing other social tasks.)

If we actually wanted to certify competence for certain occupations, we (that is, the State) could set up a testing system. While far from perfect, such a system would be far more efficient, veracious and equitable than the present demand for degrees. But we don't, so we won't.

Jessica

OK, get out of my head.

I have been saying for years that we we need (in my area, anyway) is a much better network of vocational high schools, and a complete overhaul of the role of the "guidance counselor" in schools.

I worked in adult literacy; what I saw was people who were not "college material," but who were completely able to do many many jobs, being told over and over again that they needed a degree to get even the most entry-level positions. It was crazy. What they needed was a decent high school education, and one that included VOCATIONAL training so that they would be prepared for some type of career. Now, unfortunately, a high school diploma isn't worth anything.

Too few colleges now offer a REAL liberal arts education. Now it's "Take a few 'general education' courses and then get on with training for that JOB." The focus is no longer on learning how to read, write, theorize, philosophize, or THINK critically.

And I also agree with Gil.

I am $54,000 in debt for my two degrees. I am a librarian, and I love my job - but I'll tell you what - I didn't learn anything in grad school that I wouldn't have learned on the job. And now I'm broke.

akinoluna

Yeah I quit going to school when I realized how much money I was wasting, paying to sit and listen to people ramble on and on about topics from books I could read perfectly well on my own, for just the price of the book.

vlorbik

just finished _bait_&_switch_
last night; thanks!
college is, for all too many
of my students, what i call
"the disappointment machine".

just like all those gurus
you (barbara e.) encountered
(& wrote of in _b_&_s_):
our job is most of all
to help victims of our class system
learn to blame *themselves*
for their economic misfortune.

jeff schmitt nailed it
in _disciplined_minds_
when he referred to
"cooling the mark out" ...
a phrase from the world
of the con-artist made famous
in the sociology world
by erving goffman.
http://disciplinedminds.tripod.com/

Monica

Could it be that the reason degrees are necessary is that nowadays, school is just not very good and a college degree is barely the equivalent of what a high school diploma used to be a long time ago, and perhaps still is in countries with a better school system?

ThatDeborahGirl

I think you should have also mentioned how rich people "buy" their kids degrees by donating buildings (i.e. our president's mom) or making substantial donations. These people may be lettered but they didn't earn their degrees any more than someone who bought their degree online.

I've had plenty of bosses who couldn't spell their way out of a paper bag and made sure I could do their job long before they could. One thing they all had in common: rich parents or rich wives.

Anarcissie

I doubt if many people _want_ a liberal arts education. They apprehend that higher education is a class filter and they want the ticket to a middle-class job, for which they will put up with four years of boredom and considerable monetary expense. The liberal arts, along with the soft sciences, are a good way to fill in the time while the filtering is going on, because no one expects you to know any particular thing when you get done with it.

I don't think this could be done in high school because the consensus seems to be that humans are entirely incompetent until their 18th birthday at least -- 21st if alcohol is in question -- and should therefore be kept in the equivalent of an asylum or concentration camp to protect them from society and each other, except of course for the occasional lapse into automatic weapons fire. Under such circumstances it seems difficult to apply class filters. Certain prep and charter schools are the exception.

Pat Sharp

Who said you had to go to college to learn? Isn't that what books are for?
I think, the degree also saves the personnel dept. lots of energy. They can ass-u-me, that you know something wihout thinking to hard about your individual qualities, talents,
you bring to the job!
Going back to college at 57, as a Jr. in Graphic Design, was a very enlightening
experience. It wasn't like any art college I ever attended, ( three of the best in Phila.) it was more like "boot camp" for young males who are now no doubt now creating those "mission accomplished" back drops, or TV commercials for nexium!
I went because I couldn't afford $10,000. worth of Mac & sofware.
( I taught myself to use them by getting a job at a Kinko's!). In retrospect, It would have been cheaper to get a loan from the bank for the computer & bypassed the schooling!
Hindsight!
R U Cognizant

Monica

Are rich parents really buying degrees, or just admission and perhaps some discreet leniency and extra help afterwards? And are these normal degrees, or honorary degrees conferred for great accomplishments in a field (without having to attend courses), which a young student probably wont't have yet?

Eric Shaqfeh

fantastic. in a period in which most obviously education in the United States is wanting in all walks of life, a college educated and enlightened person writes an article about the "Higher Education Scam". As a professor at Stanford all my life it is clear that you could be spending your time writing articles promoting positive aspirations in life rather than suggesting that because "10-30%" of all resumes include distortions, it is "ok" to lie about all three degrees that you have received and thus obtain a position as dean at an elite educational institution. Your theory is " that employers prefer college grads because they see a college degree chiefly as mark of one’s ability to obey and conform" !!? Are you serious? In a country in which a college education is becoming an entitlement because of both grade inflation and "pushing kids along", you believe that employers need a conformation test to the tune of $100K and four plus years? Frankly the reason that jobs in the US requiring a college education has doubled is because the required knowledge at the high school level relative to the rest of the planet has halved...
I believe the message that you are trying to spread, that in a world that is becoming more interconnected, flat, and interdisciplinary, one needs to re-examine whether a college education is "necessary" for global employment in a country that, on average, is the least educated of all industrialized nations is not only ludicrous -- it falls in that dangerous paradigm of "everything I need to know I learned in kindergarten". This is certainly true of all kindergarten children, but not adults. You finish your article talking about how wonderful your college education was for you. You should frankly be ashamed to promote the message that education is not the silver bullet, since it has worked wonders in your own life.

Anarcissie

Well, there we have the outraged True Believer. All faith and dogma, and no evidence or logic.

Tim

In reply to Eris S.,
I will point out that
the majors ( and very popular ones at that )
at the university at which I am an adjunct professor include Sports Management,
Event Planning, and Administration of Justice.

If the university administration has any
intellectual integrity left,
I fail to see it.

Ken Dyck

I agree with Gil. Obeying and conforming are taught earlier, but it those that excel at it that go on to college.

What college teaches is the ability to work unsupervised. You can't graduate from college without learning some rudimentary form of time management. Students must figure out how to balance course work and drinking, after all.

I'd say it's this ability to complete work autonomously and on a deadline that most employers are hiring for when they go with college grads.

Emily

When I began my career in 1976 in the Graduate Admissions Office of a big university, the secretary was a woman my parents age. She hadn't graduated from high school, but she was always spot on when it came to grammer, spelling and punctuation. If you wanted your letter to look "professional" you went to her. She was way better than many of our applicants for Grad School.

If only high school students could do as well today, you might see fewer jobs requiring a degree. If only college grads could do so well today, you might see fewer people my parents age pointing out the mistakes.

Anarcissie

According to someone writing in the New York Times, the young today are much smarter and better prepared than they used to be -- and they're still not going to get into Harvard.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/29/nyregion/nyregionspecial2/29Rparenting.html

I thank God I grew up before everyone chained to the work machine like that.

Steve K

I cannot help laugh at MIT for having such a successful dean for so many years who never got a college degree. It shows you how little value there is is so many higher education jobs.

I work with PhD's every day and many of them are the most unorganized, unknowledgeable people about important things that are needed to do real work. Education does not provide the skills to set priorities, manage people and time, or understand financial tradeoffs in any kind of business.

Yet so many of these people are full of themselves because of the letters after their name. Stuck on a deserted island, they would be the first to succumb to the elements.

Tom

Education, from the inside, IS a big scam. The colleges are now educational industries and treat their faculty accordingly. For years i've been an adjunct math instructor at two different colleges (one a Catholic University), and the same lack of ethical standards that businesses use to keep their bottom lines growing the colleges use to avoid giving raises to their adjuncts. Even though i get rave reviews from the students, each year it's the same low rate of pay. Oh sure, i can quit and let some other slave have the job, but i like teaching and just wish and hope that some day they'll see the light and open up the purse a bit.

LoneRanger

The U.S. college system is as big a bait & switch as what Barbara wrote about the white-collar job market. The price keeps rising every year, and colleges have no incentive to be efficient and reduce costs. Finanical aid departments tell broke students to borrow and go deeply into debt.

NEVER rely solely on the advice of a financial aid staffer when making the decision to borrow money. It's like asking a barber if you need a haircut.
Talk to someone more objective before taking on the debt.

Like Big Pharma and Big Oil, colleges have their snouts buried in the Beltway hog trough. Unlike other lobbyists, they justify sticking it to taxpayers with the sanctimonious excuse that they're "educating" the populace.

The professor who wrote the previous rant is a classic example of the educrat mentality. Does he have any real world experience in his field of alleged expertise, or is he all theory and bloviating BS?

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach. Those who can't teach administrate.

Gretchen Adamek

My late stepmother worked at SNET for 25-30 years. She was a high school dropout, and the position she held when she retired would now require a 4 year degree.

I'm all for education, higher and otherwise, however, it would be nice to see companies acknowledge and reward actual learning and skills.

Another thing to think about as we watch the rich get richer, and the middle class disappear, is the outsourcing of so many telephone customer service jobs to India. For many people those type of jobs offered a chance to advance without the degree. People who regularly speak to a company's clients become well informed about both the company, and the needs of its customers. But instead of promoting an experienced customer service rep to a sales position, companies hire professional sales people with college degerees to whom we never speak after we've bought the product, and who often move on to sell something else at another company.

Tim

Isn't it obvious why universities create majors like Criminal Justice, Sports Management, and Event Planning ? : there is no way in heck that the millions of students entering college every year have anything like the skills or ability to do real intellectual work. I'm not going to go in for any sort of 'good old days' argument harking back to a
time when students were better-prepared ; but just
having so MANY students in college certainly makes their shortcomings more evident.

As to the sort of jobs available, jobs like many things are what you - or
your employer -- choose to make them. The excessively 'practical' American view of education as job training, with the goal being to acquire a minimal 'skill set' ( silly term ) with the minimum effort is in the first instance an unnatural separation of values. We
expect our houses to keep out the rain and cold, but also be pleasing to the eye; a sofa is expected to
be easy on the bottom, but also expected not to be ugly ; so why does a typical job have to be structured to offer no hope
of self-acutalization to
the person holding the job ?

And in the end, this excessive 'practicality' means tha the job will go to someone on the other side of the world anyway.

theresa

Hee Hee!

Marilee Jones just proved you don't need advanced degrees, or even an undergrad diploma, to be an Admissions Officer at one of the nations' top universities.

Let's all apply to fill the post, and contest when they turn us down!

Mary

The other important issue is that, most likely, if she hadn't lied about her credentials, she never ever would have made it beyond an entry level position. She was brilliant at the job, but without the requisite academic "union cards"--and as a woman--her talent, ability, intelligence were worth exactly nothing. So, what is a smart, gifted, ingenious woman without the correct number of diplomas supposed to do to get ahead? A little creative cheating, that's how. I only wish she had gotten away with it. I hope she writes a huge best-seller exposing MIT and makes millions and gets whatever job she wants. Secretary of Education in the next (Democratic) administration?

Anarcissie

"If you live outside the law you must be honest."

Verify your Comment

Previewing your Comment

This is only a preview. Your comment has not yet been posted.

Working...
Your comment could not be posted. Error type:
Your comment has been posted. Post another comment

The letters and numbers you entered did not match the image. Please try again.

As a final step before posting your comment, enter the letters and numbers you see in the image below. This prevents automated programs from posting comments.

Having trouble reading this image? View an alternate.

Working...

Post a comment