Wretchedness and Excess

Santa Claus is coming . . . to Wall Street. Goldman Sachs’ employees are getting bonuses that average over $600,000 a head and run up to $100 million for some of the top guys, though it’s a safe bet the cleaning crew won’t be seeing any of this largesse. Holiday parties are another measure of the frenzy in the financial and tech industries, reaching levels of excess not seen since the dot-com era: Hand-rolled cigars, $500 a shot champagne and caviar servings, “signature cocktails” like pomegranate martinis, custom disco lighting, and bevies of near-naked elves.

The New York Times (12/10/06) reports that “for a hedge fund firm, L'Olivier is creating an Aspen chalet-themed gala at the Morgan Library, with Ralph Lauren-style decor and fake animal heads for mounting on the wall, at a cost of about $100,000 (and that's before the food and drinks).”

Maybe they’re just bitter because they haven’t been invited to any of the right parties, but the folks at ABC News couldn’t resist offering helpful tips on how to spend a $100 million bonus: “You could provide immunizations for more than 40,000 impoverished children for a year ($37.5 million), then throw a birthday party for your daughter and one million of her closest friends ($60 million). You'd still have enough to buy a different color Rolls Royce for each day of the week ($2.5 million).” (http://abcnews.go.com/Business/FunMoney/story?id=2723990)

What bothers me about the wretched excess in the financial industry is not just the missed opportunity for immunizations, but the fact that, for most of us, Christmas is a portal to serious debt. More serious, I should say, since 115 million Americans already carry credit card debts from month to month, with an average balance of $9000. Throw in the seasonal obligation to toss money around for Play Stations, fruit baskets, cashmere twin sets, Talking Elmos, and the like – and you’re looking at a long, cold, 2007.

It doesn’t help that the average minimum monthly credit card payment has doubled within the past year. Fall behind, and you face a late fee of about $30, plus the possibility of seeing your interest rate soar to 30 or 40 percent. Fall really far behind and they’ll come after your house, your car, and your children. You get to keep your credit card though, because the financial industry loves nothing so much as a debt slave.

But there’s a bright side to even the most crippling debt: It can be sold. Not by you, of course, unless there’s something I haven’t noticed on e-Bay. Your credit card company can sell your debt to some other company that will happily engage in water-boarding or whatever it takes to collect it. In other words, and I will admit that my understanding of these financial shenanigans is sketchy, your debt magically turns into someone else’s asset. Think of it this way: your misery over the January heating bill helped finance a pomegranate martini, served up by a scantily clad elf.

Comments

[A Canadian]

Dammit! I knew I was working in the wrong industry! Last bonus I got was a turkey! At least we had a decent meal that Christmas.....

[GreggB]

Christmas? You must be kidding. Again this year, for the fourth time in 25 years, the airline business has kindly decided to "eliminate" my position. Once again, there will be no tree, no presents for my wife and little cheer at my house for the holidays. At least my kids are grown and I don't have to try to explain why Santa isn't stopping by.

Meanwhile, the interest rate has soared on the Visa card, which carries a balance because we have had trouble paying on it because of falling salaries and benefits cuts. I've had to ask for another deferral on my school loans, since we can't pay on them and keep our house or eat.

A college degree and a relatively successful career mean little when you're in your late 40's and dumped like an empty beer can....again. I hear that the county needs counter help at the animal shelter. Sad that, if I can get the job, it will pay almost as much as each of the last three airline jobs I've had.

If you've ever wondered why many airline employees are is such a lousy mood during the holidays, it's because due to 90-day warning rules, we usually are told that we're about to lose our jobs around Thanksgiving time. Add that to the overbooked flights, the stressed and demanding passengers, the lost baggage...and you wonder why there aren't more "reverse air rage" incidents.

[jm]

Gregg,

I'm sorry about your situation. I'm not much better off. Working in a make-do job, trying to save $$ for college. Want to finish my BA, but don't know if it would be worth it. (Think I'm close to your age.)Fortunately, I don't have children. But I do have a god-child who always wonders why, for the last couple of years, his gifts aren't as good as what the other cousins get.

This Christmas I won't be traveling to visit relatives - "why don't you buy a newer car?"

Think I'll just sleep in and visit Monster.com, again.

[lc2]

There is no other event that makes me feel more un-American than Christmas. I ask myself why we elevate this holiday to such mythical proportions for children, giving them the strange belief that money temporarily grows on trees. It borders on cruel, because how will they square the illusion with reality once they're grown and have bills of their own? Oh, now I remember: little plastic cards.

I have a stomachache over the money, not just for gifts, but cards, stamps, decorations, a tree (they don't give them away, after all) ... where does it end? I gave up the cards a few postage increases ago -- now I barely receive any. It's a little hard to get excited about incurring debt. Yipee, now I know why I'll be going to my crappy job for the next six months -- to pay the interest charges on credit cards.

It's the time of year when one's personal preference for simplified living is not admirable and old-fashioned, it's ... weird, and cheap. I hope I'm not the only one who wishes this holiday -- which I believe under the right circumstances could be a spiritual experience -- had not been reduced to a major debt-incurring mechanism for American households.

[Anarcissie]

lc2: 'It's the time of year when one's personal preference for simplified living is not admirable and old-fashioned, it's ... weird, and cheap. I hope I'm not the only one who wishes this holiday -- which I believe under the right circumstances could be a spiritual experience -- had not been reduced to a major debt-incurring mechanism for American households.'

You have to do it, not wish it.

Rule number one: Nothing with plastic. Burn your cards. This is the first and most important rule.

Rule number two: Make a deal with everyone not to exchange gifts. Exception for those with no income like children or seriously poor people. If you must give things, consider giving things anonymously to people you don't know.

Rule number three: Be proud of being weird and cheap. The expensive, normal people are destroying the world as well as making themselves and everyone else miserable.

[sd]

Christmas used to stress me out to the max. That was even before I got laid off twice in one year from the tech fields, and finally had to take a job in a call center at a major competitor of Wal Mart (one that stays just one notch under Wal Mart as far as the "bad press" radar goes, but is just as bad as Wal Mart in all complaints, if not worse).

Anyway, my family finally got to the point where we no longer exchange ANY gifts. Instead of exchanging gifts, we all decided to give to charities about 5 years ago. It took a few years, but in the past two, we've succeeded in not exchanging any gifts and all have been happy. My son's girlfriend's family has taken it a step further, bless their souls, in that they volunteer at a variety of places over the holidays - ranging from working the food lines in shelters dishing out meals to packing boxes to be shipped to needy people, to "adopting" needy people or a family for the holidays to help provide household items needed. I think I might join them all next year (haven't formally met the other family yet).

So, it's all a matter of choice, really. Parents can set expectations of kids (I ALWAYS informed my kids that their presents would be "small" $$-wise, (especially since I was a single parent with a very limited budget).

No matter your position or religion, I wish you all peace and contentment during this holiday season.

S.

[kate]

As a single parent, kids now grown, I remember clearly the guilt I felt because I couldn't keep up with the hyped middle class image of the bountiful christmas. It is grotesque, not only for its inhuman commercialism, but also because the people who most propound the 'preservation' of the holiday seem to have no problem mixing consumerism with their religion and of course coming up with nothing but boatloads of crap they don't need.

I dream of a day when people think about doing something meaningful rather than buying something meaningless for the holiday.

[Jen]

Merry National Consumerism Day Indeed

Thanks to my young age, the most annoying thing I have to really deal with is my step mother bugging me about what I'm buying for whom in her family when I don't even have enough money to pay my rent. Two jobs, both of which essentially lay me off during the holidays because of the college campus shutting down with no vacation pay, and a full time class load... I doubt I'll be buying much of anything really.

So as I go through my holidays, I'll be keeping the fires lit through the longest nights of the year and celebrating the return of the sun. Fresh beginnings with the new year, hopefully something good will come of it.

I hope everyone can make the best of their holiday seasons, remembering that its not how much money you spent on someone but rather the fact that you took the time to think of them.

[Tim Worstall]

'Your credit card company can sell your debt to some other company that will happily engage in water-boarding or whatever it takes to collect it. In other words, and I will admit that my understanding of these financial shenanigans is sketchy, your debt magically turns into someone else’s asset.'

Sketchy is one way to describe it. No magic and it doesn't 'turn into someone else's asset.'

It already was someone else's asset. The credit card company's. See, your liability is always someone else's asset. It's the way it works. If I lend you $100 then you have a liability to me of $100 and I have an asset of $100.

Does this really need to be explained to adults capable of both walking and talking?

[Kevin Hayden]

I'm testing the system by defaulting on my one credit card without assets. I presume this may qualify me for the gulag for not living up to the ownership mantra, but I remain convinced that 30% interest is not credit, it's loansharking by fine print.

That's what being one day late twice caused, after 11 years of perfect payments.

So rather than surrender in the latest version of the class wars, I'll see if one can live free of all common encumbrances, as part of the anti-credit insurgency.

(It'll exclude me from the toniest parties, but then, I always thought tony was a bit of a goof.)

[Barbara E]

Duh, thanks Tim.

For more on Goldman Sachs see http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jonathan-tasini/goldman-sachs-owes-you-mo_b_36328.html

[GreggB]

Thanks, guys. Sorry I had to vent, but I'm so angry and frustrated over my life because (as far as I can tell), all my friends and I have done "all the right things" and none of us have any employment or financial security. I even went back to college as an adult and excelled, and I still can't get and keep a job in my field or any other.

Over the last few years, our extended family pools our limited funds to help a local family that has even less than we do. If we each can spare $10, we can get them a few gifts and a good meal for their kids. I'd rather help some family buy their little girl or boy a toy, rather than participate in the annual American greed fest.

What really galls me more is the current media push to save. What makes them think most middle/lower income Americans have anything to save after normal bills? "Choose to save?" Spare me.

[Alex]

I don't know much about holiday spending. All i know is that with capitalism as it is, mentally ill people will suffer FOREVER. Only more socialism can get them out of their trap.

[Anarcissie]

GreggB: 'What really galls me more is the current media push to save. What makes them think most middle/lower income Americans have anything to save after normal bills? "Choose to save?" Spare me.'

Where do you see a push to save? I see only pushes to spend, and drive up the already astounding debt level of ordinary working people.

[CheapAl]

The campaign to convince people to spend more on instantly depreciating junk is deplorable, so don't play the game. Give the kids an affordable gift or two, but don't go overboard on debt. That will cut the demand for Red Chinese sweatshop labor at 25 cents an hour.

Make the day better for a needy person or family. As for gifts, I shop for deals on gallons of quality apple cider, and I can usually get it for around $2 a gallon. Friends really like to receive it.

[A Canadian]

Seeing how much everyone is hurting this "holiday" season, I thought it might be good to share a recent Christmas I had with my family. All of us are pretty strapped financially so an elaborate gift exchange was out of the question. So, instead we all decided to make each other gifts for Christmas. It could be anything you want; from a poem, to a watercolor painting to a hand-woven basket. It turned out to be the best Christmas ever for all involved. We enjoyed making the gifts and everyone loved the creativity, time and effort that went into each one. Obviously this is something that needs to planned ahead of time...10 days before Christmas is a little short notice.

I suggest that some of you try that next year. You'll be pleasantly surprised by how enriching the whole experience can be.

[jm]

A few years ago, my parents told my sibs and I to NOT get them any gifts. "Do something for someone else." If we wanted tell them what we did, fine, if not, fine.

My sibs and I volunteered at various places: a soup kitchen, an animal shelter, driving a cancer patient to the hospital, etc.

I still send out Christmas cards, but just a few and I don't decorate. It's less work. And my god-child is the only one I purchase for(I don't know if he hates me because I'm so cheap.)

Gregg, you're not alone with your job situation. I'm in the same boat as you. I wish you and everyone here a Merry Christmas. We are all valuable! We just have to keep believing that!

[chris]

John Tasini writing about Goldman Sachs proves he knows absolutely nothing about finance, Wall Street or how an economy works.

He wrote:

We are all paying for the enrichment of the investment bankers and rainmakers..."

Utter nonsense. They pay the bills in New York City. Those who work in New York City pay New York State and New York City taxes, in addition to federal taxes. For those who live in CT or NJ this is some juggling, but everyone whose paycheck comes from an NYC company pays, and those guys pay the most.

He writes:

"In the summer of 2005, Goldman Sachs successfully extorted money from New York, threatening to leave the city unless it received tax breaks and low-interest bonds."

Many BIG Wall Street firms have departed for Stamford. Like UBS, with its football-field sized trading floor set just off Route 95 in Stamford, across the street from the train station. Now CT gets all that tax revenue from UBS workers. And CT real estate is getting a boost too.

He babbles:
"...the company pocketed an unbelievable deal: $1.65 billion in low-interest, triple-tax-exempt Liberty Bonds, enabling the firm to save as much as $9 million a year in financing costs, which would save Goldman about $250 million over the life of the bonds. If that wasn't enough, the city also threw $115 million in sales and utility tax breaks at the company, in return for a commitment to maintain its headquarters in Lower Manhattan and employ more than 9,000 people through 2028; those breaks could rise to as much as $150 million if Goldman adds 4,000 new jobs by 2019."

The income tax coughed up by Goldman employees will make those breaks look like spare change. On top of that, those Goldman employees will spend their dough in lots of Manhattan venues as well as in their Long Island or Westchester towns.

He blabbers:

"...New York rolled over, succumbing to the kind of corporate blackmail that has been draining cities and states nationwide of badly needed revenues for things like schools, affordable housing and infrastructure."

What crap. People with money pay all the bills. Not people without money. Look at it this way. If all Wall Street firms left NYC, we'd head back to the day when the city was bankrupt and President Ford said "Drop Dead."

He dreams:

"...this give-away was unnecessary. The company was more likely to be persuaded to stay in New York by the closeness to other financial institutions, New York's infrastructure and the trained workforce that existed."

Is he stupid? More and more Wall Street firms are moving parts of their operations out of town. That's one reason Jersey City looks like NYC West. Stamford is filled with all the corporate headquarters that were once in Manhattan and Greenwich is Hedge Fund Heaven.

He sputters:

"So, here we are now: a company that is taking money out of my pocket and yours is setting aside $16.5 billion in cash to pay out as bonuses--an average pay day of $622,000 per worker. Of course, average really is misleading--the top dogs at the company will reap the big windfalls (CEO Lloyd Blankfein is reportedly in line to cash a check of up to $50 million), with the support staff probably getting a free Metro Card or maybe a nice holiday gift basket, at best."

Nonsense. Everyone at Goldman gets extra money this time of year. Secretaries are topping $100,000 in a year like this.

He whines:

"But, why should a company that chooses to devote $16 billion to bonuses continue to be underwritten by the average person?"

Taxpaers do NOT underwrite Goldman. Goldman floods the NY State treasury with a river of money and if New Yorkers had any brains they'd do everything possible to make New York City the most attractive city in the world for financial companies.

He stupifies:
"Here's the cruel irony: New York's residential real estate market is out of control, with the city increasingly becoming a place for the rich. Blankfein and his high-rollers will likely spend a huge chunk of their new riches to buy multi-million digs in the city, further pushing up prices and making housing even more unaffordable for millions of people--the very people who are paying taxes that are supporting the tax-breaks Goldman Sachs is enjoying so it can rake in even larger profits. Isn't capitalism great?"

He's out of his mind. Wall Street firms pay out a huge percentage of overall revenue as compensation. Usually 50% or more. That translates into huge tax revenue for the city via income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes and any other tax you can name. Period. No other business in NYC comes close.

He moronically urges:
"...boycott its services and refuse to use the company in any investment of pension funds or other financial instruments."

What a genius. In other words, chase off the biggest tax-revenue rainmakers because they want a few small breaks for the company which will come back in huge multiples when the employees pay their taxes, buy their homes, their cars, their clothes, etc, etc.

Instead, this meatball wants to increase the number of poor people in NYC. Why? Those are the people who are supported by the heavily compensated employees of Goldman Sachs and the rest of Wall Street. Wake up.

[chris]

barbara writes:

"What bothers me about the wretched excess in the financial industry is not just the missed opportunity for immunizations, but the fact that, for most of us, Christmas is a portal to serious debt."

Is there a law that commands people to go into debt for gifts this time of year? The argument that people are helpless spendthrifts in the face of holiday gift-buying pressure says only that individuals are idiots.

barbara adds:

"More serious, I should say, since 115 million Americans already carry credit card debts from month to month, with an average balance of $9000. Throw in the seasonal obligation to toss money around for Play Stations, fruit baskets, cashmere twin sets, Talking Elmos, and the like – and you’re looking at a long, cold, 2007."

From the preceding it's clear that credit cards possess some mesmerizing power that hypnotizes people and reduces them to helpless consumers, buying presents like sharks going though a school of fish.

Okay. Lock up the people who distribute credit cards. They're the new crack dealers. Put them where they belong -- far away from irresponsible consumers.

[chris]

More nonsense from barbara:

"It doesn’t help that the average minimum monthly credit card payment has doubled within the past year."

How did that happen? Actually, that sounds positive. People are paying twice as much of their debt each month. Before long they'll pay off the entire bill each month and stop carrying a balance. Now there's an idea.

She blabs:
"Fall behind, and you face a late fee of about $30, plus the possibility of seeing your interest rate soar to 30 or 40 percent."

Nonsnese. Call the company and demand the removal of the charge. Tell the customer service rep you have six more cards in your pocket and you'll switch to one of them immediately unless the ridiculous charges are removed. Guess what? They'll knock off the charges.

She fear-mongers:
"Fall really far behind and they’ll come after your house, your car, and your children."

More nonsense. But don't think you can skip out on your bills by declaring bankruptcy. That strategy has been eliminated.

She blames the victim:

"You get to keep your credit card though, because the financial industry loves nothing so much as a debt slave."

Yeah, the credit card made the deadbeat spend like a drunken rap star. Get serious. Credit card companies are in the business of giving people UNSECURED LOANS. When you buy a house, the bank can sieze the house if you decide to stop paying your mortgage. But there's much less the credit card company can do to protect itself from people over whom it has no leverage. Nothing backs a credit card loan. If people don't pay their credit card bills, the losses they create are borne by all those who do pay. Very simple.

She sneers:

"But there’s a bright side to even the most crippling debt: It can be sold."

That's right. And this is a great advancement in financial markets and the the ability of companies in the business of extending credit.

She babbles:
"Not by you, of course, unless there’s something I haven’t noticed on e-Bay. Your credit card company can sell your debt to some other company that will happily engage in water-boarding or whatever it takes to collect it."

You can buy stock in companies that trade debt or securitize debt. Like Goldman Sachs, for one. Or Bear Stearns or Lehman Brothers for two more.

She admits:
"In other words, and I will admit that my understanding of these financial shenanigans is sketchy..."

and:
"...your debt magically turns into someone else’s asset. Think of it this way: your misery over the January heating bill helped finance a pomegranate martini, served up by a scantily clad elf."

Think of it this way, someone with spendthrift tendencies brought problems upon themselves. But Barbara would rather you find someone else to blame for your own profligate ways. Why own up to bad behavior when it's possible to blame somebody, anybody else>

I can assure you no one on Wall Street wants anyone to overspend and suffer.

[little light]

Golly, Chris, you sure know a lot of verbs. Are you by any chance aware that there are indeed people who have to rely on credit to get by on basic living expenses, even temporarily?

And it's certainly a grand advancement for credit to be bought and sold. For instance, I remember one time that the hospital to whom I was making bill payments--and negotiating on bill amount--concealed from everyone that it was going bankrupt and recouped some of its losses by selling my bill without telling me--a bill I was responsibly paying, though in installments as it was hundreds of dollars and I couldn't afford insurance when I got taken to the ER--to a collection agency, who ramped up the interest rate and really screwed me. That was a grand notion.

Or the kindly customer-service folk who'll reverse your nonsense late-payment fees and so on on your card, in your world. For instance, the nightmare I had this year when the credit-card company screwed up my address in their database and decided I couldn't be contacted about a payment entered incorrectly by my bank teller, and therefore decided, without letting me know, to declare my account delinquent and freeze both my card and bank account--while charging me over $700 over fees for ever y nickel-and-dime charge or check made during the three weeks before I next stopped by a bank branch to figure out why my ATM card had shut down. In the next three months as I was shuffled from department to department, told by god-knows-how-many people that they had no ability to help me out, and told that it was someone else's responsibility, they confirmed the banker's error and the address error--but still refused to reverse the fees, because my account couldn't be reactivated until they were paid, and they couldn't be repaid until my account was reactivated, because that's where my money was.
The bottom line is, I didn't have a lot of money--I don't--and so losing my business means nothing to them. Nothing at all. And as with the hospital-bill incident, they knew that I couldn't afford a lawyer to sue, either, or the time off work to go into the bank branch every day and harass them, since the many days I did come in, they found excuses to refuse to meet with me. They knew I had no recourse that could actually harm them, and cut their losses because people like me are virtually helpless against companies like them.

You seem like you're refusing to acknowledge that things like this happen, and that for most Americans, one disaster like this--or getting in a car wreck, or having your hours cut at work--can crash you, because there's no safety net and everyone with the cash in hand seems to think you deserve it for not working hard enough. And meanwhile, your bills need to be paid, your rent needs to be paid, same as it did before your losses changed the whole gameboard.
God forbid I get the chance to buy my mother a Christmas gift. It must be because I don't work hard enough.

[lc2]

I feel really torn, Anarcissie. I am sitting here wondering if the people I know who throw caution to the wind and are astonishingly generous at this time of year are better people than me, or are just more comfortable with a higher debt:income ratio. This seems to be a "woman thing" too -- like lots of presents, cookies, handmade stuff, etc. make you win the nurturing race -- kinda like football for men, I suppose. Most of the year I do feel proud of our choices, but every time Christmas rolls around I wonder if I have a missing holiday cheer chip. I try to enjoy the traditions that don't break the bank and catch a few of the endorphins in the air, but it seems that when everyone from the min-wage clerk at Dunkin Donuts on up is talking cheerfully about recreational shopping that you just KNOW they can't afford -- that there's something wrong with those of us who don't embrace it. Ultimately I do enjoy giving gifts and there's a fleeting pleasure when they're well-received, but at what cost?

The reason my family has so little money left over from paychecks is that we're doing the responsible thing by near-maxing out on my spouse's 401K contribution (to which his company makes a token match). The result is that our take-home pay is irresponsibly low when you factor in things like Christmas, the unexpected $1500 car repair we had in Nov, etc. We are solidly middle-class in gross income but it sure doesn't seem like it most days, at least not in the northeast.

I know that one of our children feels cheated not so much because of the relative paucity of gifts around here, but because he sees ever-more elaborate Christmas decorations in the surrounding area -- what a change since we were kids, huh? -- and wonders why we don't have any. They look festive and fun, and a part of me feels sad that we come off as so grinchy and miserly.

[chris]

little light wrote:

"Are you by any chance aware that there are indeed people who have to rely on credit to get by on basic living expenses, even temporarily?"

It's one thing to get by temporarily with the help of credit cards. But it's something else entirely to depend on credit cards -- and a growing balance due -- to meet basic living expenses. That's a prescription for financial failure.

You wrote:

"And it's certainly a grand advancement for credit to be bought and sold."

As long as debt has existed, it has been possible for one creditor to sell it to another. There's been a bond market in the US for as long as there's been a stock market.

You wrote:
For instance, I remember one time that the hospital to whom I was making bill payments--and negotiating on bill amount--concealed from everyone that it was going bankrupt and recouped some of its losses by selling my bill without telling me..."

First, you obviously don't understand bankruptcy. Second, your debt isn't cancelled because your creditor has his own problems.

You wrote:

"...bill I was responsibly paying, though in installments as it was hundreds of dollars and I couldn't afford insurance when I got taken to the ER--to a collection agency, who ramped up the interest rate and really screwed me."

You should really learn how to negotiate with creditors. They will ALL make deals with debtors. Even the IRS.

Collecton agencies may engrage you, but they are necessary because it is so easy to stiff creditors in the US. Their game is buy your unpaid debt at a DISCOUNT from the total you owe -- otherwise known as face value.

They will demand payment in full or payment at a high interest rate. They are limited by law as to what they can do to collect. They will negotiate. Some debt is simply uncollectable. They lose on some debt and earn a little on other debt. But if collectors understand you will work with them, you can get terms you can accept. After all, they know you can refuse to pay and there's nothing they can do about it.

Credit-card debt is unsecured. The creditor has nothing to hang over your head. If you own a home and don't pay your mortgage, the bank can foreclose and sell your house. But even in that case, if the bank sells the house for more than the amount owed on the mortgage, the homeowners receives the excess. The bank can't foreclose and seize the homeowner's equity.

You wrote:

"Or the kindly customer-service folk who'll reverse your nonsense late-payment fees and so on on your card, in your world."

They will. I've gotten quite a few late charges reversed by threatening to switch to another credit card.

You wrote:

"For instance, the nightmare I had this year when the credit-card company screwed up my address in their database..."

Frankly, I'm a little skeptical of your story. If you want action, you have to speak to a credit-card company supervisor, not the customer-service person who answers the phone. The person with whom you deal must be a decision maker with some authority. Not a human buffer.

And your story is a good cautionary tale about why people should hold credit cards from issuers other than their banks.

You wrote:
"The bottom line is, I didn't have a lot of money--I don't--and so losing my business means nothing to them. Nothing at all."

Wrong. And your following comments prove it.

You wrote:
"And as with the hospital-bill incident, they knew that I couldn't afford a lawyer to sue, either, or the time off work to go into the bank branch every day and harass them, since the many days I did come in, they found excuses to refuse to meet with me. They knew I had no recourse that could actually harm them, and cut their losses because people like me are virtually helpless against companies like them."

If your business meant so little, the bank wouldn't have done what you claim it did. The charges would have been reversed and you would have gone on your merry way.

You may not care to admit it, but you didn't stand up for yourself. Screaming and cursing in the middle of the bank lobby isn't the answer. But standing firm, and if necessary, walking into someone's office, cubicle, or desk area will do the trick.

You wrote:

"You seem like you're refusing to acknowledge that things like this happen, and that for most Americans, one disaster like this--or getting in a car wreck, or having your hours cut at work--can crash you, because there's no safety net and everyone with the cash in hand seems to think you deserve it for not working hard enough."

Entirely false. Your thoughts about what others think are the product of your own mind.

You wrote:
"And meanwhile, your bills need to be paid, your rent needs to be paid, same as it did before your losses changed the whole gameboard."

That's all true. But some bills can be postponed and some reduced, and sometimes lifestyle changes are forced upon us.

You wrote:
"God forbid I get the chance to buy my mother a Christmas gift. It must be because I don't work hard enough."

That's what you think. Your mother will understand and she won't hold it against you.

[little light]

Chris, your condescension is unwarranted and unwelcome.
I know what bankruptcy is and what collection agencies are for. The hospital was not yet bankrupt and did not declare itself so for months after what it did to me; it was also bouncing paychecks to its employees long before any bankruptcy was declared or even suggested to be imminent.

Do you really think there's nothing you can do if you refuse to pay your creditors? They may not be able to repossess things you don't own, but they can certainly make it near-impossible for you to get a loan in the future, or start renting a new home, or any number of other things that a quick background check of your terrible credit will confirm.

As to your assumption regarding standing up for myself, I lost track of the hours I spent on the phone with the bank and credit card departments, and I asked to speak to a supervisor every time I called, which was nearly every day for about three straight weeks and tapering in frequency for the next couple months. Each insisted that either could not get a supervisor or transferred me to another low-level representative in another department, sometimes while I was mid-sentence. When I finally got someone a little higher up, I was told the problem could only be resolved by the branch manager of the local bank getting two of their different supervisors on a conference call, which the bank manager refused to do. Every time I walked into the desk area and stood firm as you suggested, I was told the manager was busy and would meet with me in a bit, and they would take down my concerns in the meantime. Then I was kept waiting until the bank closed and told to come back the next day. How do you expect a working person to sustain that strategy long? They wouldn't make an appointment, and they wouldn't return calls.

Every call back I was promised or meeting I requested was stalled and stonewalled. The only way I got anything resolved was to convince a bank teller at a branch I didn't frequent to rope her manager into shuffling a couple of things for me--that is, I cheated. Threatening to remove my business didn't work, nor did speaking to a supervisor. They effectively shuffled me around to multiple departments every time I called, with a long hold time on each and the need to re-explain my situation each time. What's there to learn about negotiating? I don't have control over their strategy or their transfer-call button, and I don't have control over people refusing to meet with me. You assert that my business was worth enough to the bank to keep, but it certainly wasn't worth enough for them to care about my being a long-term customer--that is, having the financial survival potential to stick with them for the rest of my life.

Maybe it sounds implausible to you, but it happened, and when I told friends about it, I heard a half-dozen stories like it, right off the bat.

Honestly, have you never been at the bottom or worked for wages? Where are you coming from with these assumptions that your advantages have just been in the department of having more savvy and gumption?

[chris]

little light, you wrote:

"Chris, your condescension is unwarranted and unwelcome."

You exposed yourself on a website available to everyone connected to the internet. You get what you get once you've put yourself on view.

You wrote:
"I know what bankruptcy is and what collection agencies are for. The hospital was not yet bankrupt and did not declare itself so for months after what it did to me; it was also bouncing paychecks to its employees long before any bankruptcy was declared or even suggested to be imminent."

None of what you wrote is relevant. And it's still clear you don't know what bankruptcy is. And it seems as though you think your degt is cancelled because your creditor was in financial straits. Not so.

I have no moral objection about refusing to repay debts when cash is short. That happens.

But I also know about negotiating with creditors because I've done it. That includes the IRS and the student loan people. It also includes credit card companies that have erroneously billed me.

You can believe consumers are helpless and at the mercy of lenders or not. Your choice.

You wrote:

"The only way I got anything resolved was to convince a bank teller at a branch I didn't frequent to rope her manager into shuffling a couple of things for me--that is, I cheated."

Why is that "cheating"? It sounds like the only smart move you made.

Bankers are no less human than anyone else and would rather be seen as concerned and helpful people instead of conniving pickpockets. That's why it never hurts to take advantage of someone's goodwill in situations such as yours.