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February 16, 2006

Comments

DLE

Barbara,

I went to the Bureau of Labor Statistics and looked for the source for your information, but can't find anything that corresponds to what you're blogging about. The list I see listed at the site for fastest growing jobs is at this link:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab21.htm

and it doesn't have retail salesperson listed number one. Not only that, but the link I have above shows that most of the jobs offer good income, not the same as what you are quoting.

I'd like to blog more about this at my own blog, but can't duplicate your findings without that link you're citing. Thanks in advance for providing it.

Laurie

"...[D]ozens of readers of Nickel and Dimed wrote to inform me that the problem with the working poor is that they just hadn’t bothered to go to college."

Because the only thing stopping every member of the working class from going to college is his or her refusal to do so. (Note: Sarcasm.) Hypothetically, if every citizen in this country with only a high school diploma or GED went back to college for higher education, where would we employ them all?

Hattie

Are middle class people like me expected to clean and cook and do yardwork, take care of our kids and old people? Make our own clothes? Haul our garbage? Nonsense. We pay others to do these things, and we pay them as little as we can get away with.
Once upon a time in the 50's we middle class white folks did our own work. And we put up with the pollution that manufacturing our own goods caused. Everyone hated this, so we got rid of the onerous tasks of life, the messy industrial areas and such and replaced them with cool lifestyles supported by Chinese goods and cheap immigrant labor. Thus we became the high class affluent jerks we are today.

Barbara E

To DLE: I got the list from AOL. It was one of their news stories a few days ago -- http://jobs.aol.com/article?id=20060124162709990001

DLE

Barbara,

Thanks. I was able to go back to the BLS and find the original info at:

http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab3.htm

That URL deals with sheer numbers of people in those positions, while the URL I listed in my initial comment was for fastest growing by percentage, not by absolute numbers of people in those roles.

Still, I wonder about the accuracy of those numbers in either case. Computer-related jobs show up high on both lists and I can tell you that where I live in the Midwest computer jobs are not only paying very little now (as companies are even starting to hire high school students to do some of the work they normally gave to older tech workers), but most of those jobs are being farmed out overseas, with more going that way daily. It was common to see network techs being paid $80,000 a year in the late 1990s, but many of those same positions now pay under $40,000 a year. I know that I was offered a network admin job just a couple years ago that paid only $28,000 a year and required me to be on call 365 days a year. Needless to say, I got out of tech! So forgive me if I questions the government's projections in the computer field.

One last thing. The data you provide in that URL can't be used to make trend comments unless we have previous data (say from ten years ago) to compare the recent tables with. Do you have that information available? If the top five professions from ten years ago are largely unchanged from the earlier list, it's misleading to say that job opportunities are getting worse all around.

Barbara E

DLE: No, I don't have data from 10 years ago. Can you find it and let me know? I also wondered about the presence of "computer applications software engineer" at #19 on the list. If you have the time, why not call the BLS? I'd do it myself but I'm on the road for the next 4 days.

A3K

"Because the only thing stopping every member of the working class from going to college is his or her refusal to do so. (Note: Sarcasm.) Hypothetically, if every citizen in this country with only a high school diploma or GED went back to college for higher education, where would we employ them all?"

Well, Laurie, one of the complaints from corporate chiefs is a shortage of skilled workers. If some of our people took more math and engineering, they'd find employment in high paying jobs very easily.

The most recent report on unemployment showed total unemployment of 4.7%. However for those with less than a high school diploma, it was 7.0%, for those with a high school diploma but no college, 4.4% (already less than the overall average) for those with some college, 3.5%, and for those with a bachelor's degree, it's 2.1%.

A3K

"Everyone hated this, so we got rid of the onerous tasks of life, the messy industrial areas and such and replaced them with cool lifestyles supported by Chinese goods and cheap immigrant labor. Thus we became the high class affluent jerks we are today."

What a load of nonsense. You may be a jerk, Hattie, but that doesn't mean everyone who's "middle class" is.

There's actually little in your comment that reflects reality. Manufacturing employment may be down, but that's more attributable to improvements in productivity. See, we have robots do a lot of our manufacturing processes and instead of having 5 guys do backbreaking work, we have one guy maintaining the robots. And that one guy makes more money.

The Chinese who work for us, earn higher wages than they would if it weren't for our demand. So if you want to feel bad about exploiting them, go ahead. But the reality is, they're recovering from one of those wonderful socialist experiments in criminalizing self interest.

It'll be a little while before they catch up to us, but if you look at Japan, Singapore and South Korea you've got examples proving that it can and will happen. This is their first step. I guess you'd prefer they never take it.

As for those Mexicans who risk their lives so they can come up here and be exploited... Well I can't tell who hates them more. Hypocritical "conservatives" who want to shut the borders or hypocritical labor leaders who want to shut the borders. Can you?

Frankly, I like Bush's notion of making their work legal. But since it's his idea, I'm sure you don't like it. You being an affluent jerk and all...

A3K

http://www.bls.gov/emp/emptab21.htm

DLE and Laurie,

Of the top 31 fastest growing (by percentage) occupations, 23 require at least an associates degree in college.

So those are probably going to be better paying jobs. That means most of the fastest growing occupations can't be accessed by people who don't get a good education.

Sounds like an argument for breaking up schools with high drop-out rates and either reforming them with new faculty or giving the parents of the students a chance to pick their own school.

If we don't, the jobs of the future will not be accessible by the children of the inner city. Of course that's not a winning argument at an NEA meeting, but it's the truth.

A3K

"But the list does give us a clue as to where our economy is headed, and it’s not in the direction we were promised."

Barbara,

I consider that a particularly dishonest comment. Especially since you ignored the list showing the occupations with the highest RATE of growth, which does support the thesis presented by Mr. Reich and does give a hint about which direction the economy is going.

It may not support whatever it is you're trying to advance. Socialist revolution? Is that the goal? Because I can't seem to determine an actual theme to your meme beyond that.

The fact is, despite all your bellyaching (and to be fair, you're not alone) about outsourcing, the net effect of it is quite positive. You ignore that companies that outsource low level jobs actually free up cash to create new higher paid development jobs. If only there were the workforce here to hire.

And you further ignore the rate of INsourcing. Granted, the numbers aren't as easy to find, but the fact is, Toyotas are being built here now. Same for BMWs and Hondas and other foreign name plates. And they aren't the only ones.

I recommend the following story to your readers:
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/06_07/b3971001.htm

Granted, it's a longer read than the AOL story that got you started on this entry, but it presents some provocative ideas for how to view our economy.

A3K

Oh, and one more point.

Manufacturing employment in China has been falling. Betcha didn't know that.

Seems productivity is having its effect there, too. That and closing state-run plants that haven't produced anything in years...

Of course, the in People's Republic, over 4,000 people died mining coal last year. As they become more capitalist, that should drop significantly.

Hattie

Yes, I am a jerk. Fully admit it. But I have nothing to lose by that assertion. I do believe it's the first step for me toward an honest and realistic way of life, though.

mcsquared

I think Barbara's half-joking comment about professors teaching cooking preparation may be more accurate than she realized--the only way I can see "post-secondary instructors" being the third fastest growing job is if it lumps together the trucking and cooking and ESL instructors along with the college professors. My history PhD friend (an excellent dissident blogger in his own right) says that the academic jobs he's applying for get 200 applicants minimum, so despite his pages of publications, he's practically given up on being a university professor after a year or so of trying.

mcsquared

I have to add though that the last part about MFAs and PhDs being overqualified for the majority of jobs seems to always have been true--isn't the situation of struggling artist/actor/writer working as a waiter while waiting to get their "big break" almost cliche? I've been hearing buzz about "MFA being the new MBA" since managers are a dime a dozen now but a lot of designers are needed--we'll see if that trend pans out.

Laurie

"Well, Laurie, one of the complaints from corporate chiefs is a shortage of skilled workers. If some of our people took more math and engineering, they'd find employment in high paying jobs very easily."

Really? How do you account for the "2.1%" of degree-holding Americans who are currently unable to find employment, then? If skilled workers were in such high demand, wouldn't college graduates have an unemployment rate of virtually zero? (I, too, hold a bachelor's degree and presently make below $10/hour. This amounts to the necessity of my return to college for another degree. If higher education was supposed to afford me the opportunity to get by, why are so many of us drowning?)

Laurie

"The most recent report on unemployment showed total unemployment of 4.7%. However for those with less than a high school diploma, it was 7.0%, for those with a high school diploma but no college, 4.4% (already less than the overall average) for those with some college, 3.5%, and for those with a bachelor's degree, it's 2.1%."

Even if we accept all of your statistics at face value, it still won't change the reality that motivation isn't the only factor keeping many Americans out of the college classroom. There were always be slackers, and these days their numbers are certainly growing, but branding all low-wage workers as lazy leeches mooching off the tax payer's dollar is ignorant at best. Circumstances, as I'm sure you've learned during at least one point in your life, can be a real bitch.

Again, if Barbara's referenced article is correct, and 75% of Americans aren't earning decent wages, are there enough conference rooms and office suites in which to put 75% of the workforce, assuming they all return to college? If so, who will clean the suites, prepare food for the conference attendees, and take phone messages while the executives are out?

A3K

"Really? How do you account for the "2.1%" of degree-holding Americans who are currently unable to find employment, then?"

Do you know anything about unemployment statistics? Unemployed doesn't mean "unable to find employment". It means currently unemployed. That's actually below a natural turnover number.

You do know that jobs are created and destroyed constantly, all bubbling under the surface, don't you Laurie? There can be a lag time between a person losing one job and finding the one that replaced it, but we've had a growing number of jobs, so more are created than destroyed.

But there's also something else in there. It's the willingness to take work available. Some "overqualified" people won't take a job they consider beneath them. I do credit Barbara for actually taking such jobs even if it was as a stunt.

"If skilled workers were in such high demand, wouldn't college graduates have an unemployment rate of virtually zero?"

That's what a 2.1% unemployment rate is. Virtual zero.

"(I, too, hold a bachelor's degree and presently make below $10/hour. This amounts to the necessity of my return to college for another degree.

Actually, you probably just need to find a job that matches your skill set (even though it may not line up exactly with your degree) and take an entry level job.

I started out in one field, changed and took a job without a salary, then when my wife was laid off twice in the same year, I decided to give up on the "dream" and go find a corporate job again. I knew I wanted to change industries, but didn't know how my education could be used, so I paid to go see a career counsellor. With her help, I narrowed it down to the industry I'm currently in.

Since I didn't have specific course work in the industry, I took a job that many would have considered "beneath" my level of education. Since then, I've proven a value to the company and seen my salary nearly double in four years.

Take a risk. Forget hiding out in college again. They don't teach job skills there.

"If higher education was supposed to afford me the opportunity to get by, why are so many of us drowning?)"

You have to look in the mirror for the answer to that, Laurie. Have you picked a career that pays decent money? How have you worked to pursue the job you think you deserve? What roadblocks have you placed in your own way?

The jobs are out there and other people are finding them. That you haven't yet is no reason to feel discouraged or to buy into Barbara's defeatist world view.

BTW, my wife when we met was making much less than I did and she felt much like you do now. But she stuck it out and her employer ended up promoting her rapidly and more than doubling her salary in a short period of time (she went from around 21K to 46K in four years).

By then I had quit my first job and she was supporting us primarily while I tried to build a practice. She then got laid off and immediately found a job that paid over $60K. Then that job was eliminated through a strange twist because she was the only employee in her division who had been hired after her division was acquired by a large telecom company. Then she found another job within weeks that didn't pay $60K, but it did pay what she'd been making at her first job at the end.

So I took a job that put me back to a salary I'd earned when I first started working and she remained our primary breadwinner. But as I said, my salary rose quickly (because I made myself valuable to my new employer) and now I make enough for us to afford for her to stay home with our daughter (and another on the way).

Keep trying. And don't go hide in school unless you're getting specific training for a job that you know you'll be able to get.

A3K

"Even if we accept all of your statistics at face value,"

I found them on the BLS site. They break that information out every month with the unemployment figures.

"it still won't change the reality that motivation isn't the only factor keeping many Americans out of the college classroom. There were always be slackers, and these days their numbers are certainly growing, but branding all low-wage workers as lazy leeches mooching off the tax payer's dollar is ignorant at best."

Did I do that? There's a difference between saying someone's lazy and saying that maybe someone hasn't been trying the right things. And my earlier comment focused on the failures of large inner city public schools with high dropout rates. If those dropouts would simply get a high school diploma, a whole new world would open up to them. Did you notice in the stats I provided that those who just get a diploma actually have an unemployment rate below the national average?

"Circumstances, as I'm sure you've learned during at least one point in your life, can be a real bitch."

Yeah. That's the point of life. Facing adversity and coming through it. I've actually suggested a few things to help. Complaining isn't productive unless it's paired with suggestions for improvement. So if you have any, post them.

"Again, if Barbara's referenced article is correct, and 75% of Americans aren't earning decent wages, are there enough conference rooms and office suites in which to put 75% of the workforce, assuming they all return to college?"

Virtually everyone can get a high school diploma. I don't think everyone needs college, but a diploma seems to be the basic entry point for the world of rewarding work. If a person is more academically inclined, then college should be considered. But I've never said everyone should got to college. That would be a wasteful use of resources.

i If so, who will clean the suites, prepare food for the conference attendees, and take phone messages while the executives are out?

I guess I don't hold the people who do that work in as much disdain as some of you do.

Laurie, I grew up on a farm and did hard physical work the entire time. We raised livestock and I cleaned up the shit they left behind. You think I look down on a janitor?

To pay for school (my father didn't pay a dime for my education) I worked at a packing plant, on a road construction crew and as a pizza delivery guy. I didn't get grants because my father owned all that farmland. The few loans I took out were personal loans not guaranteed by the federal government.

So I'd appreciate it if you and Hattie and others would have a little more respectful tone about the work that some other people do. You may not intend it, but your sarcasm demeans them.

A3K

"Yes, I am a jerk. Fully admit it. But I have nothing to lose by that assertion. I do believe it's the first step for me toward an honest and realistic way of life, though."

Take the second step.

tanstaafl

Good stuff, A3K.

An attitude of elitism seems to underlie the idea that certain jobs are "beneath" (one) and an impatience in wanting to jump into a job in the top tier and not do the legwork to prove you're worthy.

Hattie

I toted my share of bedpans in my day, and I'm glad I did it. But I also completed my college education. I didn't think my professional job was any less important and worthwhile than my bedpan toting, however. I just didn't want to do it for the rest of my working life.

Hattie

oops. bad post. I meant of course that I did not want to tote bedpans for the rest of my working life!

A3K

Hattie,

You have had better options than some.

BTW, I finally saw the item Barbara posted about "good jobs". I guess by the definition of those folks, I don't have a good job. But if all else were equal and I had to consider between this job and a job that provided a pension instead of the generously matched 401(k) I currently enjoy, I'd still take this one.

Given that a company (on whose future earnings much of a pension's assumptions are based) could go bankrupt beyond my control, why would I want both my paycheck AND my retirement check dependent upon the same source?

I'm not advocating the error that some Enron employees made of filling a 401(k) with company stock, either. I'd argue that a job with diversified investment choices inside a 401(k) should be more attractive than a job that holds a pension.

If we're all supposed to distrust our employers (which the dominant tone of this blog and BE's writings in general) why become doubly dependent upon them?

A3K

Oh, and one more question that maybe BE would consider taking up. What economy is currently doing a better job of creating "good" jobs than ours?

Because I could always emigrate.

JML

These issues are clearly far too complicated to debate in jabs passed back and forth in a few sentences, but I want to note the importance of discussing the issues. From books like Fear of Falling through this blog, Barbara has brought the issues up for discussion, and that's far more important than the accuracy of a number or the "true" cause for any given trend.

This is also a thanks to those posting comments here, though ad hominen comments made with impunity are rather pointless, and we all know it.

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